Christina: [00:00:00] Welcome to the taking the lead podcast, where we empower people to be unstoppable. I'm Christina Hepner with my cohost, Leslie Hoskins and Timothy Cuneio. I cannot believe that this is our last episode of the.
Leslie: It's [00:00:20] crazy. It really has. We did 10 full episode. I'm so proud of us. And so thankful to all of our, I
Christina: know, I remember when this was just a thought and when I started at leader dog and you guys were like, Hey, do you want to jump on this podcast and help out with it?
And we worked on it for [00:00:40] so long. So it's, it's a bittersweet, I mean, it's not ending, but it's bittersweet that our first season is coming to a.
Leslie: Absolutely. And I think about, you know, the time that we spent in fund one, coming up with the title, right. Taking the lead, and then the logo of the three dogs with the headphones [00:01:00] on, I think is so cute.
And there was just so much prep work. And, you know, I don't know if people understand the behind the scenes of the podcast, but the three of us really have multiple weeding meetings multiple times a week. To get to get other, discuss all the details, talk about who our guests were going to be. Um, I'm going to be honest, there [00:01:20] was a lot more work involved than I ever expected.
I kind of just thought we can show up and start chatting.
Christina: Right. And I don't know how you two didn't get sick of me.
Timothy's like maybe a little bit.
Leslie: I think we had, uh, so much [00:01:40] fun and I'm so thankful to be doing this with the two of you. And I cannot wait for everybody to hear our short and kind of episodes coming up in the next couple of weeks and then to see what season two brings. I mean, who knows the world is open full of possibilities. That's exciting.
Well, looking forward to season two, and [00:02:00] again, thank you to our listeners and subscribers for joining us along this journey. We have. So much fun. So another exciting thing that we're celebrating is that leader dog is celebrating 20 years of orientation and mobility also known as O and M or white cane training.
Um, so today we're really going to [00:02:20] talk about the importance of orientation and mobility and how these skills change throughout a person's life. So our guest today has been to leader dog for ONM twice, and also for guide dog.
Christina: Yes. And today we're so excited orientation and mobility and guide dog graduate.
Drew [00:02:40] harness is with us this year, his story and his journey with orientation and mobility drew as a father of a 10 year old son, a chef, and is joining us all the way from Colorado.
Timothy: Andrew, thanks for joining us today on the show. And can you tell us a little about your story and how you lost your.
Drew: Hi, everybody.
Nice to meet [00:03:00] all of you. So I got diabetes when I was 18 months old and I am now 40. Um, about the time I turned 30, I, uh, I had been working in the Sheffield for 10 years and a lot of long hours and maybe not enough self care and, uh, started [00:03:20] forming pretty severe retinopathy, which is the swelling of the retina due to high blood pressure or blood sugar rather or less.
And, uh, at that point you start growing. Abnormal blood vessels in your eyes. And once that starts, you cannot ever, or regular blood vessels in your eyes and [00:03:40] it starts pulling on your retina and eventually your retina will detach and tear. And how's this pretty major loss of vision. I completely lost the, uh, use of my right eye when I was about 27 and, uh, my left eye functions at a very low amount.
And it has gotten [00:04:00] worse and worse over the last 10 years.
Christina: So you were in your late twenties when you started to lose her vision or lost your vision in your one. I help. What was that like to be a young adult navigating this new world
Drew: you don't, when you just lose one at a time? I didn't realize right off the bat, I had been out [00:04:20] camping and I thought I just had gotten some written my I, you know, and I didn't go to the doctor immediately.
I didn't realize my retina, it separated in my right eye. Um, But then after I was diagnosed and we went through everything we could to try to say that I would notice my peripheral vision being gone. And your other eye really [00:04:40] compensates a lot if you only have one, but you know, I would run into things with my right shoulder, um, you know, much later, like when my kid was born, when I was 30, um, my son was born, Eric.
Would be, you know, as a toddler at 32 33 scrambling around like [00:05:00] toddlers do, and I could hear him, but I noticed that I couldn't at all see him out of that peripheral side of my vision. And it's alarming because I, as a chef having a lot of noise and chaos around me at all times. Use my peripheral vision, a ton, just to kind of [00:05:20] anticipate what's going on and make corrective action and movements to not run into things and not run into people and knock things over.
And, you know, at that point I was knocking stuff off my desk every day. It was very frustrating. Um, it's hard to take like refrigerator temperatures and things like that. It was just a whole new world trying to navigate, you know, crossing the street [00:05:40] was. More difficult and getting around college campuses, which is where I worked was more difficult.
And this all in all just completely different lifestyle.
Leslie: Was this something that you knew could potentially happen to you because of your diabetes? Or was this kind of a big surprise, something you didn't anticipate?
Drew: [00:06:00] It's one of those things that you get told? I mean, obviously I was 18 months old. I don't remember not having diabetes.
So when you come to. You know, a certain age and you start to take care, start taking care of your diabetes yourself, which I probably did when putting the ages of six and 10, I got more and more control over it. And [00:06:20] my parents were helping less and less. You're told, you know, your eyes can go, your kidneys can go.
You can get neuropathy in your feet, but those are all just myths. I mean, I also heard that there was going to be a cure for diabetes and 10 years when I was young and here we are 38 years later and still fighting the battle for it. But, uh, You know, [00:06:40] overall, you know, it can happen, but as a kid and a young adult, you just, it won't be me.
Right. Absolutely. What
Timothy: first brought you
Drew: to leader dog? So, um, I stopped actually working professionally when I was 30. My kid was born in July before I quit working. [00:07:00] Um, and I quit working in January. And when. At the time I was completely blind. Everything was pitch black because I had a separate a retina in my left eye and my right eye, no longer functioned.
And so I was learning to take care of, of child blind at the same time, and also transitioning from being a shift to being a stay at home father. [00:07:20] And so, um, chefs can sometimes be a little stubborn. It was a humbling experience asking for help when you're an executive chef does not come easily because you're supposed to know it all.
Um, so it took me about seven years before I was like, you know what? My [00:07:40] kids to an age where he's starting to take care of himself a little more. What's the rest of my life look like, am I just going to sit around the house I'm active? I don't like to just sit around, but I can't make it to the mailbox.
And there was one day where I was out just fumbling around with the [00:08:00] wrong size cane and trying to get just down the street to a park, walking our family dog, and I couldn't do it. And I was in a new state and I wasn't real familiar and comfortable with everything. And finally, I was like, you know, I need to get some help.
And, uh, when the [00:08:20] Google machine, my mom had been asking me to get a guide dog for you. And nobody knows, you know, orientation, mobility first and then guide dog. And, you know, we looked at guide dogs for the blind. We looked at lighthouse, we looked at several services, but leader dog had a special place in my family because my grandmother's [00:08:40] best friend had been a donor for leader dog for years and years and years and years.
And, uh, they suggested, you know, this is the place you need to go. And so I reached out. Got in and that's kinda starts the story really.
Leslie: So it's interesting how many people [00:09:00] are connected to leader dog in different ways. We hear that all the time from, you know, different people or donors, volunteers, clients, everybody somehow kind of has a connection, whether it was, they used to live in Rochester and see people downtown training all the time or.
Uh, they knew somebody with a guide dog or who raised, you know, did puppy raising for us. So it's [00:09:20] always fun to hear the connection, but I'm curious too. So when you applied to leader dog, did you apply for a guide dog or did you apply for orientation and mobility?
Drew: Um, I applied for orientation mobility. I, uh, looked through everything I could possibly find on the web.
And then any of the information that they sent out, [00:09:40] um, I called and client services were, you know, riding on top of everything. They kind of explained the process. They'll having to come up and get the orientation mobility first since I hadn't had it elsewhere. And then the gut. Yeah.
Leslie: So a lot of times people, you know, like you mentioned, don't understand that kind of orientation and mobility or those pre [00:10:00] skills before getting a guide dog, oftentimes it can be referred to as kind of the driver's training class before kind of getting the keys to the Mercedes, if you will.
Um, so I'm so glad that you were able to identify, Hey, I really need to get some ONM first before pursuing a guide dog. Because I think we've talked about in previous episodes, a lot of times, you know, [00:10:20] family members are like, get a dog, get a dog or doctors, even we'll prescribe dogs or whatever, because they think it's kind of the, the fix it button.
Um, and people don't understand how much work and the skills that go into. Um, prior to getting a guide dog. So I'm so glad that you were able to recognize that in that our [00:10:40] client services department is amazing. You know, people call all the time and say, I need a guide dog. And they do such a great job of kind of talking through the process, starting to understand where the client's coming from, what skills they have or what.
Training they've received to kind of navigate, you know, which program is going to be a good fit. Um, so [00:11:00] we've heard a little bit about Timothy's experience with O and M at leader dogs, but through, I would love to hear your experience, um, with ONM at
Drew: leader dog. So having gone through it twice and once very recently within the last month, even, um, two very great experiences, two very different [00:11:20] experiences.
I came up, you know, you see movies again, or you read about people using a white cane to get around. Um, but experiencing it as a completely different thing. And I bad habits that I had formed over the seven years where I was operating with nothing and no training. [00:11:40] No. I used to shuffle my feet a lot. I'm used to.
You know, pacing pacing is huge. I had to revisit pacing when I was there this month, because working with a guide dog, I go very quickly and working with a cane, I have to [00:12:00] stay in step and make sure that I'm letting the cane stay out in front of me. Um, things of that nature are difficult. And so those things were big changes for me, but they walked me through every step.
I never felt like. I was rushed. I never felt like I was going to be pushed and I [00:12:20] wasn't prepared to, and just learning how much more there is. I mean, the white cane is so important. It's a tool in your tool belt. It's not the only tool and learning everything else. You have to decipher when walking down the street, you know, sounds, um, feelings, tactile functions, things like that.
You don't know that until [00:12:40] you live it. And those are the things that leader dog teaches.
Christina: So you said you came twice, you came recently. How did you know that you needed to come back for orientation and mobility? I hear it so many times from so many of our clients that say, you know, they'll come and then they'll come back to brush up on their skills.
How do you know when you [00:13:00] need to do that?
Drew: So with me, it was a little bit of a, uh, interesting case because my first orientation mobility class was in October, 2019. And I was back to get my later dog Bailey and January of 2020. And so I only had like really two months of being at home with [00:13:20] my ONM skills and trying to develop them because they're there for five days and you learn how to develop them, but where they become, second nature is just a completely different thing.
And then I got my dog and I came home and at that point, the cane kind of sat in the corner of the room more often than it should. And. Well, [00:13:40] we were working, we were fine. And then we moved to a new apartment complex and actually a, uh, a field instructor came out and worked with me one day on routes, which was fabulous.
Rod's great. Um, however, the apartment complex moved me. The unit we were renting was not available [00:14:00] when we were supposed to move in and they moved me on the exact opposite side of the complex. This complex has about 300 units. It's huge. It's about a half mile. And I realized all that training, you know, the six hours or so of rod playing out a few good solid routes.
None of that mattered. It was on it. I didn't [00:14:20] know where I was at. And so I started trying to feel it out with my cane and I still felt Cain felt comfortable, but I wasn't confident that I could plan out the routes myself. And at that point I was getting very frustrated. And we were out in the snow Bailey and I were out in the snow one day and he loves the [00:14:40] snow and I got lost and it was cold and had to ask for help, which again is not something I generally do very well.
And then I had to have somebody help me find my apartment at that point. I'm like, I need to call, I need help. And I need help that I can [00:15:00] learn and implement myself. And so I called leader dog back up and said, you know, it was a process trying to figure out how best to help me in that situation. But at the end of it, I was like, you know, if I have the skills, I can do this.
And the team at later, dog client [00:15:20] services and the O and M team were right with me and got me back. And you know, it it's been great. It's been a huge change and remembering the things. And the biggest thing was just the confidence to call. Realizing I still have the skills. I just need a little confidence boost and some little bit of refresh.[00:15:40]
Leslie: Absolutely. I think your experience is very similar to a lot of people's experience and you have the courage to make that phone call. Sometimes that can be scary, especially once you have a guide dog to recognize, Hey, I need to kind of take a step back. I need to refresh my O and M skills. And at later, About our O and M [00:16:00] program is one it's, it's really short it's one week, you know?
Um, so it's not a big time commitment. Um, in the sense of, you know, when you're thinking about guide dog class, um, but two that you can come back for multiple weeks. So five days to learn own, uh, is not very long. So you took the first five days, he went [00:16:20] home, you practice, and then you quickly had a turnaround with the guide dog.
Um, and then went back home and recognized, Hey, I need a referral. All of our clients are welcome for that refresher class, whether it be a couple of months later, whether it be three years later, 10 years later, whatever it is, um, we're still here. We want to serve people the span. So I know [00:16:40] Timothy we've talked about even, you know, you in the future, potentially if you were to lose more vision or maybe after you retired glacier about coming back in for a refresh.
Timothy: Yeah, uh, drew, I went on a recent trip and I took, it could not take glacier with me. So I had to get the cane that well, I've been using glacier for two, two and a half years, [00:17:00] and that was I'm bad. I was bad. I was the first to admit it. And I, it took me a couple of days to get my skills back. So how often do you practice without your guide dog and using your, and you use your cane?
How do you keep your
Drew: skills up now that I'm gone? Back and gotten the refresh [00:17:20] course. Um, I'm doing it at least two days, possibly even three. Um, I'm staying really hard on top of it though, because we're going to be moving again and I'm going to need that to plan routes for Bailey too. So I just really want to make sure their skills are strong.
Yes,
Leslie: especially when you're [00:17:40] moving, you know, a lot of times it's best when you get to that new environment to go out with your cane several times, get really comfortable with the route and then take your guide.gov. So you can be really confident in those, you know, instructions and when to turn and all those different things.
I think that's all.
Christina: Yeah. And, you know, as we pointed out, drew is from Colorado, so [00:18:00] he's not even from Michigan. And I kind of want to state some, cause it is the 20 years of ONM and how many people we've trained. It's 1086 people from 46 different states in that age range is 16 to 87 years old. You do not have to, again, just like our guide dog and our services, you don't [00:18:20] have to live in Michigan because we will bring you to campus for that training as you know, drew or nor Timothy live in Michigan as well.
And so drew how, you know, Timothy, you touched a bit on how you practice with your cane and you'll be moving. Is there anything that you do to [00:18:40] prepare yourself, um, for a move? Do you go there beforehand or how does.
Drew: Um, there's several things you do, um, or allies that I do, uh, if at, if it's possible to go around with a sighted guide and look to where we're moving, we're changing states.
So we're in [00:19:00] the Kansas and I've lived in Kansas before, but not in the area we're moving to. Um, but you know, pulling up for, you know, I have very little vision now, almost none, but. Pulling up even a Google map or I'll call in the leader dog. And one of the O and [00:19:20] M instructors will get on the phone with me and take a look at the map and see, you know, what are opportunities for me to travel independently.
Um, and then it is very much everything that I learned at later dog, whether it be O and M or got a dog block to block, leave your home, [00:19:40] make it down a block, go back. Keep working on that until you know that inside and out, then go to the next block and you know, it can get very frustrating when you're in a new area and you think you got it and then you end up on somebody else's front porch, right?
Like these things happen, but [00:20:00] really just have to be there. I mean, all the planning, all the prep process is very, very important so that you have a relative idea of where your. But you still have to depend on those ONM skills. How are, you know, you come to an intersection, where are the controls on these intersection?
What is the shape of the intersection? I've looked on a [00:20:20] map, but that doesn't help you when you're at the corner of an intersection. So you just got to keep using those skills over and over and over again. And if you have a bad block, once you get across, it's a new block. Start over. And, you know, you got to stay focused on what your mission at hand is instead of [00:20:40] letting you know something that went wrong, rule how you act to the next.
Leslie: I love how you described that. It takes so much patience to learn a new environment, but taking it block by block, by block. So starting out, traveling that first block and then coming back and then [00:21:00] gradually adding on as you get more comfortable, that's exactly what we would recommend as an ONM instructor.
And I think, you know, one thing people don't understand a lot of times is that when you are traveling without vision and you're learning a new infant, And there's so many different things to consider. You've got to maintain your orientation to get back to your [00:21:20] home safely. You're also analyzing all of those new intersections, as you mentioned, and trying to figure out all of that information.
But on top of that too, you're, you know, meeting the community and especially when you're going out there with a guide dog or cane, uh, that can be a little different on the interactions. We've talked about the pros and cons. A lot of times people, when they see [00:21:40] somebody with a cane tend to. The step to the side and hope they don't interact or run into somebody, whereas with a guide dog, uh, you know, people are drawn to animals and they want to learn more and do more.
So there's kind of, um, educating the community and advocating for yourself and making sure that you're comfortable in all of those environments. [00:22:00] It sounds like you have a really great tactic, uh, already, and you're already prepping for your big move. Um, is there anything that, you know, some, what are some of the biggest challenges, I guess, that you've faced or out your, your blindness journey?
Um,
Drew: so, um, one, one of the huge ones, [00:22:20] the, uh, training center in downtown Rochester Hills is amazing. I mean, anything that you can possibly run to. On a normal basis is down there. I love her in the, uh, Denver and Boulder metros, the, uh, front K to domes the tactile bumps that crosswalks and [00:22:40] Rochester, they go right into the crosswalk in Colorado.
They're all at angles on the curb. And so I have to find the bumps and then I have to figure out which way on which crosswalk I'm going and then use traffic to line me up. And that was [00:23:00] terrifying at first, even though with a cane, you know, it's difficult enough, but then when you're working with your dog, they become such an extension of you.
And when you're crossing like a really busy intersection, which in the Denver Metro, there are several of those. They feel, you, [00:23:20] you know, they, they feel your apprehension and they react to it too, because they are an extension of you. Same as your cane. And that was a huge challenge. Um, and then. In Colorado.
I always say that when you move here, they issue you a large dog and an SUV. When you get to the state line,[00:23:40]
love dogs here and they're very friendly people. Um, it's a great place to live, but you've run into a lot more. Not near as much in other [00:24:00] places where I've been, and I've traveled quite a bit with Bailey, um, through the Midwest. And you're specifically, especially in the Denver and Boulder metros, you get a lot of.
Oh, can I pet your dog? And they're already like, when they ask you, they're leaning over to do it and you just have to be like, I'm sorry, I gotta keep [00:24:20] going. Because if you stop and talk to everybody about every little thing, and this applies to ONM too, if I have questions and it's always good to be a good ambassador for people with these skills and the things, you know, that leader dog treats teaches us and later Doug itself.
But sometimes you got some place you gotta be. And it's a really big conflict for [00:24:40] me where I'm like, I want to talk to you and I want to be a good investor. And I want to make sure that everybody knows how great this place and these programs are, but I got to get my kid from the school bus.
Christina: You're right.
Well, now you can just send them this episode and be like, Here you go take a listen. [00:25:00]
Drew: And then when they find me again, I can say, oh, I wasn't talking about you. It's fine.
Timothy: Do you find the, uh, the cars that shut off at the stoplights challenging? I do. Uh, I hate those cars that are real quiet.
Drew: I don't run into a lot of those assisted there's. I mean, they're starting to come into [00:25:20] the SUV world and that is starting to be a challenge here. Now, when I moved to Kansas. Prepared for that.
Um, it's not something that happens here a lot because there's a lot bigger vehicles. Um, but in the early days of those, yeah, that that's still, I, when I was up [00:25:40] just a few weeks ago for that refresh, ran into that a couple of times. It's one of those things where you, you kind of hop back, you're like, oh, kind of get a little chagrin.
You shake it off, you take a breath and you just wait.
Christina: Yeah. We have a lot of those cars up here [00:26:00] in our area, for sure. Cause sometimes, I mean, even if I'm not looking at a car. It sounds like, I mean, my car does, it sounds like a completely just shuts off the engine. Does it when you're at a stoplight. Um, but drew, I know you have a son, so what does your son think of your guide dog?
Drew: So [00:26:20] he adores, um, my son, Eric adores my guide dog. We have a family dog. So the family dog is mostly his dog and Bailey's my dog, but they definitely interact, uh, the, my guide dogs, a 75 pound Labrador. So he's pretty big guy and my kid is small. So the dog weighs [00:26:40] always by about 25 pounds. And every once in a while, I'll be walking through the fire.
The gas fireplace will be on and I'll be walking through the living room. Like, oh, I'll reach down, scratch Bailey on his son. And then I realized the kids using him as a pillow and I'm like, okay. And then I'm like, well, we'll get to get all the fur off you. And when you get up kiddo, [00:27:00] but enjoy that nap that is
Christina: adorable.
What is it like to have two dogs? You know, one that's working in one, that's not working when
Drew: we first got Bailey home is a little challenging. Cause our other dog is a miniature Australian shepherd and is every bit a shepherd. Um, she, [00:27:20] we used to drive her nuts by all three of us sitting in different rooms and she just can't tolerate that.
So when we first got Bailey home, she's like, what's that? Why did you bring another dog home? You know, this is my job. This is my family. But as time has gone on, and she's realized that Bailey and I have a little bit of a different [00:27:40] relationship, she's she doesn't worry about where I'm at anymore. Uh, I'm Bailey's job is kind of how she acts.
She still comes over and gets love. And it's very sweet dog to me, but she doesn't hurt me. She used to like do the hurting nip at my kind of pull me places that everybody else she does not do that to me. [00:28:00] And every once in a while, she's she's seven. She's a little older that every once in a while, when we get home from a route Bailey wants to play and astral, our little Aussie will hop down.
This is how she wants to play, but she forgets how big he is. And so as fast as she is, she's runs after. [00:28:20] And then here comes, Bailey a lumping down like a horse down the hallway and she's like, oh no, what is the say? I forgot. And then she immediately runs jumps on the bed cause she knows Bailey can't do that.
Leslie: Well, thank you so much drew for sharing your story and [00:28:40] talking about your experience with orientation mobile. Congratulations to leader, dog and the O and M team for providing 20 years of orientation mobility. Again, that's that cane training and serving so many clients within that time. And also congratulations to taking the lead right, wrapping up season one.
What a fun journey we have [00:29:00] had. Thank you to our listeners for listening to taking the lead podcast. Again, I'm Leslie Haskins with host Timothy Cuneo and Christina Hapner. We hope you've enjoyed this first season and that you joined us in the coming weeks for some shorter episodes where we will address some of the most frequently asked questions that we have received.
And we really look [00:29:20] forward to season two of taking. Coming in late spring. Yes. And
Christina: if you liked today's podcast, make sure to hit subscribe and check us out wherever podcasts are you[00:29:40] .