Christina: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Taking the Lead podcast where we empower people to be unstoppable. I'm Christina Heppner with my co-host Timothy Kuo and guest host Alyssa Otis. Alyssa, thank you so much for joining us. You guys might have remembered. I did an episode completely on my own cuz my guest hosts were off doing whatever they were doing.
But it was the A, the G D M I and Alyssa was our G D M I, our Guide dog Mobility instructor. For those who don't know what G D M I is, and Alyssa now you're in a different role at Leader Dog. You have joined the dark side of marketing over here, . I have.
Alyssa: I have. Yeah. I've. Switched. Um, I was a G D M I for the last about 10 and a half years, and now I'm with the marketing department.
Christina: Yes, so she works with Leslie, so that's why she'll be filling in if Leslie or I cannot be here, she's gonna kind of be our little backup guest host filling in that role. But she brings so much knowledge that we don't have on the [00:01:00] marketing. Because Alyssa, how long were you a Guide dog mobility instructor for?
Alyssa: Well, I've been with Leader Dog since 2012. Uh, so I've probably been a G D M I certified for about eight years. .
Christina: Very cool. Yeah. And you're only in your first couple weeks here. Yeah, I know. I know. They're throwing a lot at me real quick. So jumped in two feet. We're very thankful. I've already asked you some questions on some social media stuff and post, and
Alyssa: I I love it.
I love it. I'm so excited to see what the marketing side of things
Christina: is. Yes. And we are so thankful to have you. Taking on Leslie's role. So, you know, kind of tell us, I'm gonna let you jump in and tell us about our guest today. All
Alyssa: right. Well, today our guest is somebody that we've actually heard about in previous episodes, but now we have the honor of introducing and learning more about him.
He's been a critical team member in the start of the Leader dog, o n M program, and we are excited that he is back on the o and m team now.
Christina: Yes, and Barry Stafford is a [00:02:00] certified orientation and mobility specialist at Leader OG for the Blind. So that's what o and m is, and he attended Steven. Austin State University where he graduated with his Bachelor of Science and Orientation and Mobility in 1991.
He has an M E D in special education, also from S F A S U, and he has worked as a mobility specialist in public schools, private rehabilitation centers, the VA hospital, and in the teacher preparation program at his school. Well,
Barry: Barry,
Timothy: welcome to the podcast. So the first question I got for you is, how and why did you become a orientation and mobility?
Barry: Wow. Uh, Timothy, I just want to say thank you to Timothy and Christina, and Alyssa for, um, asking me to be part of the podcast. I, um, uh, have been, uh, listening since the beginning and I feel very honored to be on the list of a very distinguished guest. I'm probably gonna bring the, the level down a little bit, but, um, somebody had to, at [00:03:00] some point, , um, I, I got into orientation and mobility, honestly.
Um, just real simple because I always felt like that's what, um, I was led to do in my life. I feel like it's been a, uh, for lack of a better term, calling of of mine. Once I figured out I wasn't going to. be a professional football player. I had to find something else to do. and uh, growing up in my small west Texas town, that's what that was.
All of our, um, goal was to, to get outta town and go play football someplace. And that didn't, uh, like most of us doesn't work . So, um, I, I got into the field, um, because that's what I really wanted to do. I wanted to, to be in a helping profess. And boy, I found a great one. I really did. This is the best thing I've ever done.
Well, honestly, I've never done anything else professionally, so, um, this is the absolute best thing in my
Christina: opinion. Barry, that is awesome. And you've been in the field [00:04:00] for many years. Can you share a little bit about, I'm sure that o and m orientation and mobility has changed so much throughout the years.
Can you kind of give us a little, um, insight on, you know, how it's changed from when you first started to now? I know that could probably take a long time, but just a little insight on that.
Barry: Yeah. I mean, the main thing honestly is that we're, we're using so much more te. Then, and like everybody, right? But, um, mobility instructors, and I was one of them, um, who said, uh, we don't need technology as long as they, we need some good cane skills, they'll be fine.
Right? We don't need gps. And it's just another thing. And uh, something else with a battery and something else that, that can, you can lose and drop and all those kind of things. So the thing that I think that has changed the most about. field is that we're, we're using technology to our benefit. It's been a, for [00:05:00] some of us who have been out on the street for so long, it was, and again, I was one of them who thought it's just an unnecessary thing.
But GPS gives people so much more information than was available to 'em before. I worked with a lady one time, um, one of the first persons I, I worked with gp. and she said, oh, I never knew that. I think it was a Starbucks or something that we found with her gps. And she said, it's on the other side of the street.
I never knew it was there until today. Mm-hmm. , it wasn't on a route. And so just, just an added layer of information that that most of us take for granted as we drive down the street or whatever. We see things and we think, well, I'll go there later. This young lady had no idea things were even. . Wow. So that really opened my eyes and said, you know what?
There's some, there's some things out there that are, uh, really, really useful. So I think technology is probably the, the thing that has changed the most. Yeah,
Christina: I can only [00:06:00] imagine. And that is amazing that technology is now becoming more accessible and it's kind of moving with the times as well. And Barry, so you obviously.
Teach at the school you went to, so you're not in Michigan. So if you can kind of tell us how that works with you working at Leader Dog.
Barry: Yeah, so listen to this and everybody else can be jealous and I don't care cuz I've got the greatest in the world. I gotta tell you. I work from home. Um, but I, I'm a full-time employee at Leader og.
I work from home, I travel. Two Michigan once a month for an on-campus o and m class. I was just there last week and then another week of the month. I travel any throughout the United States and Canada, teaching in-home o and m. So people that we have, um, people that we have, uh, identified that might [00:07:00] benefit from doing their mobility at home.
We, um, go, I go there. and, um, teach. So I'm going to to New Mexico next, uh, next week as a matter of fact, and just got back from Utah right before Christmas. So, um, I get to teach and do what I love to do and know, know how to do really well. . Um, I get to work from home and I get to travel. It's fantastic.
It's a, like I said, it's the best gig in the world. That's what I'm doing right now for Leader Dog
Christina: Man. , man.
Alyssa: I was gonna say, maybe you should go back, get your certification,
Christina: right? Yeah. Um, Alyssa joined the marketing team. Maybe I'll leave the marketing team. I'm just kidding. Get a comms. That is a joke. , if my boss hears this, I am not leaving the marketing team.
of gosh, no . But Alyssa, uh, you have done in-home deliveries as well on the guide dog part? Yeah, so I guess, um, is in-home, has in-home always been a thing at Leader Dog for, [00:08:00] you know, o and m and Guide Dog? So
Alyssa: for Guide Dogs, it's been a thing for a while. Um, and then I think with C O V, I think with Covid, things with our on and m department kind of had a change.
Maybe Barry has a little more info on how the o and m team is doing some. Some extra field stuff like your, your trips that you're taking Barry.
Barry: Yeah, so, um, I know Covid changed so much for so many of us. One of the things, one of the, I hesitate to say a good thing, but one of the benefits of having that happen was that we realized that we could do things differently.
We were all forced to do things differently and look at things differently. Um, so in mobility, we have always wanted. To, uh, follow people home. We always thought it was a good thing. They come for a week of on and m and we get people really confident and moving, stepping out. Um, but we thought, man, if we could go home with them and apply this information in this newfound confidence, [00:09:00] uh, for these people's home routes, the routes they go to their own grocery store and their own bank and restaurants and things like that.
So, um, we used to do it for local. People who were local, people who were within the drive, reasonable driving distance. And then with my new position, this is the, the first time we've, we've taken it really outside the state of Michigan. And, uh, so far, I mean, I've, I've been able to travel to, I've been in, uh, Timothy's home state down in Georgia.
It's been a week in Georgia. Um, spend a week in Tennessee, uh, North Dakota. Um, knocking off some, never been there places for me. . Yes. But that's what we're doing. We're taking it to people's homes and it just makes a lot of sense for some folks. Yeah. Some folks benefit greatly from being on campus and, and seeing the whole environment and the atmosphere there at Leader Dog and they get to see, um, if they're interested in a dog guide, [00:10:00] it's the best place to be.
Yeah. Because they get to see the, the process they live with people who are going through it. Can ask all those questions of the instructors as well. There's instructors all over campus all the time. G DMIs, I mean, um, but for somebody who, who's not necessarily interested in a dog and, and wants to travel at home, um, being able to go to their, their home and, and work on their intersections and their.
their arou is really, really beneficial.
Christina: Yeah, and I can't imagine it's probably really great for people who, you know, can't leave their home for a full week because maybe they have a job that they can't get the time off or whatever it may be. So that's really great. We're able to, we're really meeting the client where they're at.
Barry: Mm-hmm. . Absolutely. That's the best part about it. You.
Timothy: Well, I get, uh, when I'm talking to people about orientation and mobility, I get questions like, what if I can't get it that one week? Are they allowed to come back? If they're having difficulties, you know, maybe in the
Barry: future. [00:11:00] Yeah. Timmy, these, that's a great question and, and answers.
Absolutely. Yes. We will, uh, welcome anybody to come back cuz we cram a lot of information into people's heads over the course of a week and sometimes it's, it's too much to. So again, so sometimes people say, can I come back? Or if my, my life changes, if my vision changes, if, you know, if I move, we've had people call and say, man, I'm in a brand new environment.
Um, and so we would say, come back. But now we can also say, let me come to you, we can work on, on your stuff right where you are. So they're absolutely welcome to come back. So
Christina: that is awesome. I am super jealous. I'm still gonna say I'm super jealous about the traveling part. . Um, so, you know, you, what was, I guess, cuz you were at Leader Dog at one point were, did you ever live in Michigan when you were at Leader Dog in the early days?
Barry: Yeah, when we, um, and [00:12:00] when I took the job in, um, back in the early two thousands, we, uh, my family and I moved to Michigan. and we were there for, for a little bit over two years. And then a job opportunity here in Texas opened up. Uh, and it's closer to, to all of our families. My wife is from Texas as well.
And so, um, so we moved back here, but always stayed, uh, in contact with Leader Dog. I worked the camps and things like that, and anytime that I had extra time or, or time to take, , I would, uh, contract with Leader Dog and, and just stay involved teaching mobility. Always, always on the mobility side of things, and I, I've loved it, but we loved Michigan.
Absolutely loved it. Um, you know, snow is a novelty for you. You're only there.
Christina: Yeah. You get to come up for a week and then go back home though, .
Barry: Absolutely. [00:13:00] Yeah. Absolutely. You know, it was cold for a week this, this last week, and it wasn't really that cold. Somebody from Texas. It was pretty, pretty chill. So, um, I've always got the bigger coat on than everybody else.
Oh,
Christina: I bet you're probably one of the few with like a winter coat . Yes, yes,
Barry: yes, absolutely. And I've got the, the best coat. It's, uh, I counted the other day. It has 13 pockets on it. Oh my goodness. Wow. No idea what I'll do with 13 pockets, but it's, uh, it's, I'm, I'm ready if the situation arrives. , there
Christina: you go.
So, you know, in Michigan at Leader Dog. You've stayed connected with Leader Dog. My question is, why, what's the reason that you wanted to stay with Leader Dog?
Barry: Oh man, it leader dog. Honestly, for a mobility instructor, and this is, this is very biased cuz I, I, I love dogs, right? And I love being around dogs.
But what I really love about Leader Dog is being around people [00:14:00] who are passionate in their job. and I haven't met one soul at Leader Dog that didn't just love what they do. Um, you just stand around the downtown training center and watch the G DMIs go in and out with their dogs. And, um, you know, and interacting with the dogs and interacting with the people when they come in without come in for the dog.
It's the, it's the passion people in marketing. Um, so many people that you've had on this podcast that, that we've all listened. , um, passionate, passionate people, uh, about what they do. Um, and I really, really enjoy that. Um, even and the clients, I keep saying this is the best part cuz there's so many good, best parts.
But one of the things that I love the most is the people that come to Leader Dog to be trained to get instruction, are motivated to be there. We don't go out and recruit [00:15:00] people to come. They find. So when they come to us, they're ready to learn. They're motivated. They, they've already decided to make a, a change in their life.
I mean, we hear Timothy talk about that almost every time he talks about leader dogs and, you know, he came and found us and Timothy wanted to learn when he came. And there's, pardon me, there's so many other people that have that, a very similar story. They're very motivated to come. And as a teacher, if somebody's motivated, we can, we can do just about anything you want to do.
Um, as opposed to having to drag somebody out and, you know, beg 'em to show up. And that doesn't happen at Lapdog. People are there cuz they want to be.
Timothy: So, Barry, I know you've been in the field a lot, a long time and a lot of clients have learned from you, but what have you learned from your clients?
Barry: Oh my gosh, Timothy, we don't, that's a whole nother podcast.
Christina: right? , that's a great question. Yeah.
Barry: Yeah. That's a great, great question. This, I tell you, the, the [00:16:00] most absolute, most important thing I ever learned was the first time I worked with somebody with a actual visual impairment In the university system, what we do is we, we learn how to travel, uh, while wearing a blindfold, so we understand the.
and then we teach other people wearing blindfolds, and then we progress to working with people with visual impairments. The very first person that I worked with that had visual impairment, within the first 10 minutes of the beginning of the lesson, he told me again, the two most important things I've ever learned is to back up.
and shut up. . . He told me, um, he stopped me and he said, am I doing something that's scaring you? And I said, no, sir. And he said, well, back up. said, I got it. I
Alyssa: know exactly what you mean, .
Barry: And then he took a couple more steps and he turned around and said, oh, and shut up. Yeah, . Cause I was just, you know, uh, like most new [00:17:00] teachers, I was nervous and so I was trying to talk over all my inadequacies.
and I have spent the last, um, 30 years trying to back up
Alyssa: and shut up. Honestly. That's great advice, Barry. We, the g Dmmi should, uh, I should have known that a few years ago, you
Barry: know, would've helped me out. Like I said, I was lucky to learn it so young. Yeah. In, in the field. And I am, I need it on a t-shirt.
I've said it for years. I need it on a t-shirt. .
Christina: Hey, let gift shop. Yeah. Let the gift shop know. Hey, the,
Barry: I know somebody in the marketing department. We might be able to work that out. There you go. There
Christina: you go. I am going to bring that up. I don't know if they'll say yes because it says shut up, but the, if you understood it, , if you listen to the
Barry: podcast.
Maybe the ONMs and the G Dmmi can, can get it just as like a, A staff shirt. Yeah. It's
Alyssa: reminder to
Christina: us in the gift shop . Yeah. We're gonna start seeing it in all the offices just back up in Shop . Hey. Hey. It could probably be used [00:18:00] across the whole organization.
Alyssa: Yeah, I know. I can use it.
Christina: That is, it's
Barry: really good.
Just general advice too, right?
Christina: I'm sure my dog, my personal dog. Who? I talk to you all the time. would love to say that to me. If he could talk, he'd be like, all right lady, get away from me. It's enough. Don't you have a job? Don't you gotta go to work? Yeah. . Yep. That's so funny. But that's great. I mean, something you never would've expected.
Yeah. Um, so, you know, you travel so much for o and m, so is there any challenging parts about that role? You know, you're. Going through the same routes with different clients on campus, but you're going to somebody else's environment where you said you probably have never been to some of these places. So what are some, um, challenging parts with that aspect of the, your role?
Barry: Well, that's a great question and I, um, was thinking about that earlier. . The, I think the most [00:19:00] challenging part of that is that I'm not doing the same thing, like at Leader Dog. I know exactly. Like if I want to teach a certain skill, I know a neighborhood, I know a specific sidewalk I can go to or a specific, you know, traffic intersection or we can work on these specific things.
And going to, like, salt Lake City, I went to, I've, I've been in the airport there, never been in town, never traveled. , this guy wanted to use, um, the bus, the train, the light rail he wanted. And I had to, luckily he knew it, but I had to learn it right along with him. So it was really challenging. Every, every time I go to a brand new environment is to locate and kind of seek out places where we can get things done.
Uh, and most of the time the, the client is the most valuable resource there because they know the area more than more than. . And so I tell 'em before I come, I said, I need you to start thinking about some of these places that we can go because it just makes more sense that, you know, if they [00:20:00] know it and it we, otherwise I'd be driving around in the rental car looking for a good sidewalk, so and they can say, Hey, we can do this, this, this, and this.
And, and that's what makes one of the, the home deliveries so beneficial is that the person has a great idea of where they want to. Um, and it makes my job a whole lot easier, but that's definitely the most challenging is, is finding training environments that work for what we want to do.
Christina: Yeah. I can't imagine.
I mean, even when I travel, I'm like, I don't know what street I'm on. I'm going like, I get lost. So that's gotta be a challenge having to go there and teach someone in their own environment.
Timothy: Sounds like Christina needs a Victor
Barry: Reader Trail. Yeah, . ,
Christina: maybe. I do use my phone GP P s a lot. Oh dude. Trust me. Even when I walk places,
Alyssa: that's bad.
Yeah, Google map. Street views actually really good too when you're going out in the field to kind of look at somebody's environment and kind of figure out where certain things are. Do you guys find that you use that ever? Uh, Barry.
Barry: Yeah, I certainly do. [00:21:00] I was using it just this morning. Yeah. Getting ready for my trip.
I'm going to um, Los Alamos, New Mexico. Oh. And so I was looking, obviously I was looking for good restaurants, right. , right Step one. Good Mexican food in Los Alamos, but I was also using Google Maps Street view. Yeah. To look at sidewalks and look at intersections. Cuz it's just, I mean, you talk about technology, that thing is just fantastic.
You can look at an intersection from every different angle that's possibly available, and you can look at, um, you know, whether there's, you know, pedestrian signals there or you know, what, what shape of the crosswalks in, can you see them if they have any vision? Are we gonna be able to see the pedestrian signals and all that kind of stuff.
Yeah. Yeah. Google, Google Maps, especially that street view stuff really comes in. Uh, in brand new environments for sure. That's awesome. Have
Timothy: you ever run in, into anything that you go, oh my Lord, this is going to be pretty difficult to figure out, [00:22:00] to train
Barry: somebody to do almost every time I go . Absolutely.
I tell you the, you know, traffic, uh, has changed. That's another thing that's changed in our field. The amount of cars on the road, um, they're, and they're, all of them are getting. Quieter. Yeah. More and more quiet as we go. You know, the more electric cars, the hybrid cars, um, you know, they're building, they're making tires better, and they're more quiet all the time, so that's difficult.
Um, and the intersections are designed to get more cars through they're, they say they're concerned about pedestrians and they are, but their main goal, a traffic engineer, is to get more cars through an intersection in a shorter amount of. , they want more going, less stopping, which makes it incredibly challenging for anybody who's trying to cross the street, whether they're visually impaired or not.
Mm-hmm. . Um, and something that I know the G DMI has worked with all the [00:23:00] time and and mobility instructors alike, is we look at how are we gonna get, what's the safest way to get across this particular intersection? And this one, we go to the next one and it's a brand new, um, it's a brand new environment.
It's a brand new inter. And the traffic pattern is different. So, um, that's some of the most challenging things. Timothy, I, I don't know if you're aware of, but there's a, a new type of intersection that's called a divergent diamond.
Alyssa: They're so confused. I'm trying to figure out how they work myself still.
Yeah.
Barry: And, and I, I have a hard time describing it. Alyssa, you might even do a better job of that, I'm sure, but it is, they're designed so that nobody has to turn. Yep. Um, and so they don't want anybody crossing traffic and so you're going down the right hand side of the road and then all of a sudden you, you curve over to the left hand side and the oncoming traffic is curving over to their left hand side, and so you cross in the middle.
It's really,
Alyssa: really, [00:24:00] yeah. Yeah. It's like a weird double helix thing where you're on one side, then the opposite and then back. Yeah. Yeah. They just put one near my house
Barry: and thousand thankfully. Thankfully, nobody has ever said, I really want to get across this intersection. Yeah, I may, I may have, uh, secretly talked him out of it.
Yeah. so much. Let's go a little bit further down the road. Let's find something a little bit more squared straight. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, Timothy, that'd be the one that, that divergent diamond thing is A, a c.
Christina: It sounds just like a challenging, I mean, I've seen them but I didn't know what they were called.
Uhhuh. . .
Alyssa: First there were roundabouts. Now there's divergent
Christina: intersections. Yeah.
Barry: And roundabouts are No, no, no joke either. No,
Christina: they are not. I don't even like driving in them. Cuz you never know if people are gonna stop or not. That's it. Exactly. Exactly. The right. Yeah. Um, and you know, I'm sure people are hearing this podcast and they're thinking, man, Barry has such a fun [00:25:00] job.
How do I get into the o and m field? Could you kind of give us a little insight about that?
Barry: Absolutely. So there are about, um, 10 to 12 programs in the United States that, uh, train orientation mobility specialists. Um, one of 'em is the, the, the one that graduates the most amount of graduates every year is they're in Michigan, in Kalamazoo at Western.
Um, Steven F. Austin, where I graduated from, um, is the only undergraduate program, uh, in the nation. And then there are several, several others. There's one in Canada and there are several throughout the the world, but the about 10 to 12 in the United States. And it's a, uh, you, you can't find anything better to do, honestly, is you're helping people.
You, you're outside and being outside. , uh, even in Texas, you know, about 95% of the time being outside is better than being [00:26:00] inside. So, uh, you're outside, you get to work one-on-one with people. Um, you get to see immediate results of your work. You know, if you do a good job, it's obvious and it, it's just, like I said, it's, it's, it's the best job that, that anybody could ever have.
And I know, and again, I'm incredibly. It's what I do. .
Christina: Yeah. Well, I can't even imagine the connections you have all over, you know, the world at this point, traveling internationally as well.
Barry: You know, and, and Alyssa can tell you this too, um, that the relationship that you develop with people because they're, you know, they're, they're, again, they're, they're motivated to learn.
But you're, you're doing some, sometimes some fairly, uh, challenging things together. . And when you do those kind of things together over the course of time, those people, you develop a trust relationship with 'em. Oh, absolutely. Um, yeah, absolutely. And, and it's important [00:27:00] obviously as a teacher, if we're gonna step out in the middle of this, you know, divergent diamond or traffic circle or whatever, um, we don't want to go with somebody that you don't trust that.
So, um, it takes a, it takes a lot and sometimes you, you get to know people a little bit too much. . Most,
Alyssa: most of the time. Yeah.
Barry: Most of the time. You, you hear stuff that you, you wish, oh gosh, I wish I didn't know that , but people share things with you when they get to know you. Yeah. And, and especially the pressure situation.
So, um, but I would, I would absolutely never do anything. . Ugh.
Christina: That is amazing. Well, unfortunately, I feel like I could, we could talk about this forever. Yeah. But Barry, we were running out of time and want to talk, man, . I know, right? I just, this has done such an insightful conversation and we just wanna thank you so much for joining us.
Today and we wanna thank our listeners for listening to the Taking the Leave podcast. I'm Christina Hoeppner with [00:28:00] host Timothy Kuo and guest host Alyssa Otis. We hope you enjoy learning about Barry and his leader Dog journey. Please join us next week as we continue to dive into the world of blindness.
Alyssa: And if you'd like to learn more about applying to Leader Dog for our services, you can head to leader dog.org or call us at (888) 777-5332. Don't forget you can reach us at taking the lead@leaderdog.org with any questions or ideas. And if you like today's podcast, make sure to hit subscribe and check out wherever podcast.
Christina: This season of the Taking the Lead podcast is brought to you by a longtime supporter of Leader Dog, the Mary p Dani Halleran Foundation. As you may know, generous donors like this one make it possible to achieve our mission. The Mary p Dani Halleran Foundation supports the study of mathematics and mathematics education.
For more information about our generous sponsor, visit their website athttp://www.dolcianihalloranfoundation.org/