Christina: [00:00:00] welcome to the taking the lead podcast, where we empower people to be unstoppable. I'm Christina Hepner with my cohost, Leslie Hoskins and Timothy Cuneio. Timothy, you have some exciting news for us today. [00:00:20]
Timothy: yeah. Uh, I've been talking to the puppy raisers, uh, the past two or three days. I want to give ass, shout out to Mike and Tracy and everybody in shell lake, Wisconsin.
We are possibly most likely going to be flying up there late August or September. And we're going to have a big town reunion with glacier is going to be a [00:00:40] big thing. We're going to get the lion's club, hopefully involved in it, and we're going to have a big shindig. So I'm excited about that. Cause it takes a village to raise these dogs and they were all, it's just like a 1400 population, little town.
So there are a lot of them are listening to the podcast. So, uh, I'm excited about it and can't wait to get.
Christina: [00:01:00]That is so exciting.
Leslie: great that'll be a lot of fun. Uh, you'll have to have somebody video glaciers reaction when he sees his puppy raisers. I think that is always like the sweetest moment.
Timothy: Yeah, I just can't wait to, as, uh, everybody's excited about us coming back up. So I want to show them the full circle of where the dog's [00:01:20] raised and then it goes away, but it can come back and you can see what the process is and what these dogs do for people like me. And it's, it's, it's just awesome. And I can't wait to do it.
Christina: What is that like for you to still have that relationship with them?
Timothy: Well, I think they're part of my family. Uh, I always told them she's my guide dog, but she's still your pup [00:01:40] because they raised that. And so we're constantly contact, rush, send pictures. We talk at least once a month and we've seen them once before, but it's been on, there'll be almost two years and they were very happy to see glacier because normally that doesn't happen.
So they're excited and I'm glad they're part of our lives. And, uh, [00:02:00] I told them if anything happens to us, which we don't want to, they will get glacier back. So they're very special people in my life.
Leslie: That is really sweet. I'm glad you have that relationship with them and how fun for them. You know, they dedicate a year of their lives to raising glacier and to now get to see what glacier does every day and the impact that she has had on your life.
[00:02:20] I think that's incredible. So you'll have to keep us updated and again, take lots of video and photos so that we can, um, experience that with you. So we'll do that. All right. So just to catch everyone up in the last two episodes, we talked about our breeding department, the breeds that we have, and then we talked about puppy raising with [00:02:40] Eng and all those experiences here at leader dog.
But let's talk about what happens when the puppy's returned to the leader, dog campus, after being you with their razors for that full. So a couple of different things can happen at that point, but most likely or fingers crossed. What we're hoping for is that these dogs will begin their formal training.
Our guest today is here [00:03:00] to explain a bit more about how we train our leader dogs. Yes. And
Christina: Eric Rodman is a guide dog mobility instructor, also known as a GDMI. He has six years of experience in, within the last year. He has also taken on the role of apprentice supervise. There he helps others in their three-year apprenticeships [00:03:20] to become a guide dog mobility instructor.
Eric also raises puppies for leader dog and is currently raising his third puppy McP, who is a black lab puppy, and is actually here with us in the studio. So if you hear a dog that is McP
Timothy: Eric. It's great to have you in here. And, uh, can you tell everybody what a GDMI [00:03:40] is?
Eric: Thank you, Timothy. Thank you, Christina.
And. It's such a loaded question because, uh, yeah, because, uh, as a GDMI where we, we are people of many hats, but essentially our role breaks down into two main components. Uh, we spend most of the year [00:04:00] training, uh, the guide dogs, applicants that come into leader dogs, so training the actual dogs to get them up to standard so that we can then match them with a client.
And then the most important part of our job is then putting that dog in the hands of our client base and working directly with the clients and teaching them how to work with the [00:04:20] dog, um, to become a fully functioning team. Um, again, that is very simplified and watered down. Um, along the ways we are, uh, assessing and evaluating and training and matching these dogs.
Um, again, we are, we are working with people and with [00:04:40] animals, so, um, anything can happen, uh, which is part of the allure and the mystique, if the job, if you will. Um, and, uh, it, it, it's a wonderful role where I think, um, a big portion of, uh, doing it well and doing it [00:05:00] effectively is, is being able to build relationships and, uh, not only.
Not only with our clients, um, who we can have a nice conversation in English with, but being able to build relationships with our little four legged buddies like this little guy I have under the table here. I think that
Leslie: is such a good [00:05:20] description of it. It really is two pieces. There's the aspect of working with the dog.
And there's the aspect of working with people and that's something for our listeners or anybody who's interested in being a guide dog mobility instructor, to understand because many times we're like, oh, I love dogs. I want to do that. I want to do that. And they're forgetting there's a whole human side, which is a very, very important piece.[00:05:40]
So I'm curious though, Eric, these puppies they're with their puppy raiser, like McP right now is with the. Um, and then they come back to leader, dog, what happens first or what happens at that
Eric: point? So they come in and, uh, when they come in, they are, you know, we kind of introduce them to our canine development center.
We have the, um, the [00:06:00] dogs are kind of separated into what we call villages and inside the villages are each of the dogs and closures, which they refer to as. Um, so a big part of, you know, the first week or so is, you know, the dog's kind of adjusting to the new environment. Um, they're seen by the vet just to make sure everything's good and clear medically.
Um, and [00:06:20] then, you know, shortly after that is where we come and meet them for the first time and kind of do our introduction. How do you dues if you will, um, and really start to build the relationship with the dog because we can't come. In the first month of training and expect the dog to perform like a class ready dog when there is no relationship [00:06:40] built there between the dog and handler.
So we spend a lot of time in the early days, um, taking them outside to play, getting them outside, to stretch their legs and everything, and then peppering in, um, you know, the, some of the skills that we're training as well, too. Um, but we want to make sure that the dog is kind of, um, having some of those stress relieving activities [00:07:00] as well, just to, you know, sniff around.
Chu on a Nylabone or whatever it is, um, to give that dog a little.
Christina: And that is amazing. What you guys do. I've got to witness, I shadowed one of the teams one day and I was just blown away at the relationship you guys make with the dog, but also [00:07:20] how you pair a dog with a client. I think that is just amazing.
I mean, Timothy, you talk about glacier in the relationship you have with glacier and how. The personality just matches. Eric, can you talk about how you go about matching these dogs with the clients?
Eric: So it's, [00:07:40] it's been explained to me and, and it kind of, you know, as people go through their apprenticeship to become a GDM, I, um, we often call matching in art form rather than a science, because.
We don't have a standardized formula that we can just plug all the variables into and say, okay, he needs a female black [00:08:00] lab go to those shelf and get them one, you know? So, uh, so we have to take in to account. Um, a wide variety of variables, um, from things to, you know, physical characteristics, such as their walking pace, their speed, their stamina, um, upper body [00:08:20] sting coordination, balance dexterity.
And then you factor in all these other, um, things outside of just the, the human component, like the environment that they're working in their daily schedule, the level of activity they have in their lives. Um, their personality. Cause maybe if you're somebody who's very straight [00:08:40] laced and, and you wouldn't appreciate a silly kind of goofy dog, a witch McPeak can be at times here when he, uh, when he wants to be.
Um, so we try to factor all those little pieces in, into the match, um, because we, and w you know, we, we, we feel like it it's a pieces of a puzzle. Um, so we [00:09:00] try to get as much of it right as possible. Um, and, and our clients also, when they apply to get a guide dog, um, can have a preference as well. Um, so they can denote that on their application.
If they have a, you know, male or female preference or black lab, German shepherd, golden retriever, um, and we try [00:09:20] to accommodate and adhere to that preference as much as possible. But if we feel we have a better match than we kind of. We give them the pitch over the phone and say, we know you wanted this, but we think he might like this and see where it goes.
Um, so again, uh, not an exact science and sometimes we get it [00:09:40] right. And sometimes we do get it wrong, unfortunately. Um, but that's why we try to work with the clients and to build a nice open and honest dialogue early in class to be like, like, you need to let me know, let me know what it is you're looking for in a dog, because.
Um, I want to get you the best fit possible.
Timothy: So how long has the formal training for these
Eric: [00:10:00] dogs? A formal training is 16 weeks right now. Um, and so that's, that's usually broken up into four, uh, training phases that are about a month long each. Um, we start off in foundations, which is reinforcing a lot of the behaviors that the dog already knows.
Um, [00:10:20] you know, such as obedience and things like that, um, while exposing them to the kennel environment and taking them outside and, you know, exposing them to the harness. So they start to get acclimated there. Um, and then in the second phase of training, that's basic, um, in basic training is where we take them down to downtown Rochester.
Uh, and [00:10:40] especially for the people listening who live in that area, probably see us walking around main street and down in the, you know, in the subject. Um, down that way. Uh, we do a lot of the introductory, uh, curb work and a lot of the guide dog mechanics, if you would, the turns, uh, we really try to tighten up the steering, I guess he would on these [00:11:00] dogs in that, uh, in that second phase.
Um, and then, then we have intermediate and advanced and intermediate where we kind of started teaching, um, you know, the finalized skills, some of the more complex skills. Um, some things like intelligent disobedience where we, you know, we try to program into the dogs, um, what to do, [00:11:20] uh, in given situations such as the presence of traffic in the path of travel, um, and things like that.
And in advanced training, finally, we, we really just kind of tailor the dog to the specific client because by that time we have a pretty good idea of the. That we have for that particular dog. And if we know we [00:11:40] need to expose the dog to something specific, such as they're going out to rural Wisconsin and they may see a dairy cow or two, we may try and get that dog over to, uh, see some cows prior to that, just to make sure we're not in for any surprises.
So,
Christina: and you know, you, these dogs go through formal training and we know [00:12:00] some of them. All become guide dogs, they can get career change, which means they can go to another organization or become somebody's dog at home. So how do you guys decide when that happens and kind of that process?
Eric: So, um, uh, dogs can be cut from the guide dog program for, [00:12:20] um, you know, a variety of reasons.
Um, the one that's mostly out of our hands is, is for medical and that that's deemed by our veterinary school. So if there is something wrong with the dog's joints or back or anything, that's going to prohibit the dog from being able to be an effective guide or may have some health issues down the line.
Um, we will, [00:12:40] uh, medically career change the dog, uh, in that regard, um, on our end is, uh, for dogs that are, um, having any issues behaviorally. Um, so, you know, we typically. Evaluate the dogs multiple times throughout the training cycle. Um, and if they're not up to standard, um, they can be [00:13:00] career changed, uh, or if they are displaying any behaviors that would not be conducive to guide work, anything like aggression or, um, Lack of being able to focus out in public around people or too distracted by small animals.
Um, there's a variety of reasons. And you know, like I was [00:13:20] saying on my way in that being a guide dog is, is it's, it's a tough job for a dog. Um, we, we expect a lot from these dogs. Um, they're wonderful. They're smart. They're quick. Um, but to be an effective guide dog, a dog has to deny a lot of these inmates.
Dog like behaviors. [00:13:40] Uh, don't smell that. Don't chase that. Don't, you know what I mean? Don't go say hi to that. Um, when they're, when they're in harness and on the clock and not every dog is, is cut out to do that. Um, and, and we need to, you know, be honest with ourselves so that that all plays into that selection process that we're, we're considering.
Leslie: So [00:14:00] we know really, like you're saying only the elite really do make it through all of this formal training and go on to work with someone who is blind or visually. We talk a lot on this podcast about what the guide dogs don't do. So we're always saying, you know, the guide dogs don't know how to read a traffic light or tell somebody when to cross.
They, you know, don't do this. Don't do that. Can [00:14:20] you tell us, uh, what does a guide dog do? Like what are their main responsibilities when working with somebody who's blind or visually
Eric: impaired? Oh, that's a great question. There are a variety of tests. I would say. Um, the first of which, in which we kind of introduced to clients is helping them maintain as a point of orientation.
So when we train the dogs, we [00:14:40] train them to travel from curb to curb for a reason. And that's to help our clients maintain their orientation when they're walking or. Um, because if we let them turn all Willy nilly left and right, whenever they pleased and cut corners, um, it's hard for our clients to keep track of where they're at on their routes when they're walking about on town.
So [00:15:00] we teach them to treble curb, to curb as a, a point of orientation. Um, the dogs are trained to stop at any changes in elevation. So any sudden increases in elevation or sudden drop-offs in elevations, the dogs are to. Um, and we, you know, in training, try to prove this to by, you know, [00:15:20] stopping and then telling the dog forward forward until we kind of discover the legend itself, uh, and then reward the dog.
The dogs are also used to help target objects such as chairs and doors and. Different objects. Sorry. The puppies
Leslie: having a great time. Yeah. [00:15:40]
Eric: He's taken a tour of the studio over here trying to build a fast. Um, yeah. And then, uh, so yeah, so the targeting is a, is a, is a big, a big tool that we go over in class with our clients a lot as well, too.
Um, because these dogs are, um, like I said, very smart. They're very [00:16:00] quick to learn. And once they become patterned, uh, especially for some of our clients who go to work every day in the same environment and whatnot, um, them being able to teach the dog how to find their specific chair in an office full of dozens and dozens and dozens of chairs, or to take me to my desk.
Um, just blows people's mind when they see the dog's [00:16:20] ability to be able to do that. Um, so they quickly get into patterns and, and kind of learn, uh, learn all those little, uh, ins and outs of the. Um, but yeah, so mainly, and then most importantly, yet is also, um, to avoid obstacles, went out and traveling. Um, the dogs are trained to maneuver and kind of push and pull in [00:16:40] the harness.
Uh, I like to say that the harness is how the dog communicates to the handler and then the handler communicates the dog to the dog, through the leash. Um, and that's how they move them left and right. Um, around obstacles while track. Oh, you
Timothy: know, we got so many different brains with leader dogs. So is there a difference tone each braid, like is one [00:17:00] easier to train than the other breed is?
Eric: Ah,
Leslie: I love asking GTMs this question. What's their favorite breed? What do they, you know,
Eric: I mean, I, my favorite read is not, and I mean, it.
Well, my PC answer, all dogs have the [00:17:20] capability to have the capability to learn. Um, it depends. I mean, I hate using sweeping generalizations about breeds in general. It's like saying all humans are all males or all fi you know, it's, it's just a, it's a blanket statement. It doesn't apply to everybody. Um, but from the [00:17:40] observations I've seen, um, I appreciate labs.
Uh, it's just a breed that's near and dear to my heart. They are. They're smart. They're adaptable, they're resilient. They'll do anything for food, which makes them pretty easy to train. Uh, you know, and I appreciate that. [00:18:00] Um, but some people love the, the personality of the golden retrievers and I've seen that, you know, and I've gotten the opportunity now to see some seasoned golden retrievers out there working with clients.
And they're, they're wonderful looking dogs out. And then when I first started my, uh, my mentor at the time told me about, you know, German shepherds and I had [00:18:20] never worked with a shepherd. And they said, well, that's the Cadillac of the guide dogs. I was like, I don't know what you're talking about, but that sounds cool.
Um, but you know, I've heard from clients as well, too. I've had shepherds in the past that, you know, once it clicks and it gets there, um, that it's, it's smooth sailing almost like riding in a Buick or whatever you go. Air ride [00:18:40] suspension. So, um, I guess it's based on personal preference, but, um, as a trainer, the, one of the more challenging yet most rewarding parts of our job, especially in the early days, is finding that piece of information out because that is crucial in building the relationship with that dog.
[00:19:00] As we have to find out what makes you tick, just like. What do you w what motivates you? What gets you going, why do you want this dog? W what's what's the true reason, you know what I mean? You want to get out, I want to get back to work. All right. Well, you know what, Timothy, when we get you out, get your work and get you back to work, you know?
So it's finding that sense of motivation so that you [00:19:20] can speak the dog's language as you progress through the training. So, Um, and, and you, you know, what motivates them and gets them going. So you're telling us there's no battle of
Timothy: the
Eric: sexist. No, no. I've, I've heard that question. People are like the males, females is one graduate.
No, no difference. No [00:19:40] difference. I
Leslie: do always love asking the GTMs those questions though, because everybody does have their own preference or feelings towards certain breeds or dogs. So it's always kind of. To hear their answers, but I want to give everybody just an idea of like the capacity or how big leader dog really is.
So I'm going to say a lot of numbers here. Well, not a [00:20:00] lot of numbers, but keep in mind, this is pre COVID. So I don't know necessarily what our numbers are currently. Pre COVID when we were having normal class sizes, um, we would graduate around 200 guide dog teams annually. So that means we are matching 200 clients with their guide dog, um, and getting them out into the world and to live a [00:20:20] world of independent.
Also for on-campus guide dog training, it was around 21 D it is around 21 days long. And typically those class sizes were around 20 clients. So obviously with COVID, lots of things have changed for us just as it has for everybody else. Our class sizes are much smaller right now, trying to keep everybody's health [00:20:40] and safety, um, in mind.
But. We do a lot at leader. It's crazy how many people's lives we really are impacting. And I'm curious, Eric. So when we're talking about these numbers, that's 200 guide dog teams. That's 200 dogs that are graduating and going on to be with somebody and help them be a little bit more [00:21:00] independent. How many dogs does a guy, Doug mobility start off with a guide dog mobility instructor start off with, so when you're first coming in, you're starting off kind of with that string of dogs.
And then how many of them really make it through to become that elite guide dog?
Eric: Yeah, so we can start from anywhere around [00:21:20] eight, even close to 10, but I would say eight's more of the magic number for a trainer to start with w which is what your is called your string of dogs. So you'll, you'll typically start somewhere in that ballpark, give or take a few dogs.
And I would say by the end of the cycle, maybe half. I have those make it, [00:21:40] uh, if, if, if you're doing okay, maybe only a couple. I mean, it depends, again, I've had cycles before where I had, you know, close to 10 dogs and took seven dogs to. Um, I don't, I'm not taking credit for them to say . I just think I got lucky.
Um, but then I've had [00:22:00] cycles where I've had to say start with the same number of dogs and only, you know, two of them made it all the way through and stuff. So, you know, all those, those factors we talked about earlier, like the medical behavior. Sometimes, you know, uh, life just kind of happens and, and, and it just kind of have, is the luck of the draw.
Leslie: So, yeah. Wow. I mean,
Christina: I can't even train my own dog at home and you guys start with [00:22:20] that many dogs and could end with, you know, just this much, depending on the factors. I think that is amazing. And getting to see what you guys do day in and day out and getting to witness it sometimes. Just a great experience.
So if you happen to see our instructors out and about in your [00:22:40] area, cause they go to a lot of different downtown areas. I encourage you to look, watch what they're doing and ask questions if you're curious, because I think it's just such a great learning experience. And you know, is there something when clients come on to campus for those three weeks, is there something that they're most surprised about with.[00:23:00]
Eric: I try to give them heads up on the, we always do like a preclass phone call before they come in and I try to give them a heads up, like bring your walking shoes because we're going to, yeah. So Timothy knows, Timothy knows. Um, but it's one of those things that it, [00:23:20] no one can give you a book and make you a guide dog in.
You got to get a dog in harness in your hand and you got to hit the streets and you got to go out and do it. Um, so it's a lot of repetition. It's a lot of walking. It's a lot of me as an instructor walking behind you, nagging you, going Timothy, watch that arm, Timothy, watch that intimidate. I told you about that arm, right?[00:23:40]
To the point to the point where Timothy goes home and he's walking on his own. And he goes, I got to watch him. Why am I doing that? Why am I thinking that, oh my God, it's, Eric's voice it's in my head, but that's the point is we, we, we sometimes have to nag and drill it a little bit to where it gets, you know what I mean, becomes muscle memory becomes, uh, um, [00:24:00] second nature.
Um, you know, it's just a lot of work, a lot of repetition and it can be a lot for some people and we try to give them a heads up, uh, to let them know, um, that, you know, it's, it's not a, uh, a switch you flip. Um, it takes a lot of time and practice to get there with the dog, but it it's well worth it. If you're willing to put the word.
Leslie: Absolutely. Our [00:24:20] clients put in so much work. It is not easy coming to class for three weeks time. You're away from your family, a lot of your comforts. And now you're trying to learn this new living, breathing thing that you're going to be responsible for. And you're working together as a team. You're also there with people from all over the U S and other countries.
So you're around different people. And sometimes that can be incredibly [00:24:40] stressful, especially because a lot of people, again, still walk into the situation thinking, oh, I'm going to get a guide dog. It's going to make everything so much. And once they're in class and really working, they're understanding, oh my gosh, I have to put a lot into this.
There's there's so many working components that go into having a guide dog and being successful with a guide dog. Right. I've heard, um, in the past that we say on [00:25:00] average takes about six months to a year to really become like a good guide dog working team, if you will. But I am curious, so we've talked a little bit here about the on-campus training, which is our 21 day program that happens on our campus in Rochester Hills.
What are some other options, so somebody can't come away from their home or work responsibilities for 21 days. How else can
Eric: they get a guide? [00:25:20] Oh God. So certainly we, we do have a field services department, which kind of, they help with, uh, some of our in-home trainings that we do. Um, so on top of the three week, um, class that we do here in Rochester, we also offer what we call a flexible.
Which is a [00:25:40] combination of a, another type of training, which is the home delivery. Um, and that is for people again, uh, that cannot leave and come to campus for three weeks for, you know, either whatever requirements they have or commitments they have, uh, you know, children, job, whatever it may be. Um, and so we will actually have somebody, one of [00:26:00] our guide dog mobility instructors come out to their home.
And deliver the dog to them and work with them from anywhere from like a week and a half to two weeks. Um, that's a little more accelerated because it is one-on-one. Um, whereas if you come into class, you may have, uh, two, two to three students per one instructor. [00:26:20] Um, whereas the home delivery is one-on-one, so it moves a little quicker and it's a little more, um, intensive.
But the flex training kind of blends the two of those together. So the flex training is a short and stay here on campus, followed by an immediate in-home followup to kind of make sure that you and your new dog or off, and you know, on the [00:26:40] right foot when you, uh, when you get back.
Christina: So there's a lot of different options and I'm sure there are some people out there who are going, wow, this is got to cost an arm and a leg.
Let's talk about that portion of it. We provide these services are free to our clients, which is such an amazing thing because [00:27:00] we do it all donor base as well. So, um, knowing that you can come to campus. For free. We fly you in, we provide you those residents services, you get fed. We don't just bring you here and say fend for yourself for food or anything like that.
Everything is free. And that's a huge thanks to our donors, [00:27:20] the lions clubs, big donors of ours, corporate partners, private donors, single donors. I mean, we couldn't do this without any of them. And Eric, what does that mean to you to be able to. Provide this service to our clients for
Eric: free. It means a lot.
The beauty of my [00:27:40] job is I get to be there firsthand and, and interact with clients face to face and to hear the gratitude in their voices when they're thinking the kitchen staff and everything. For feeding them three meals a day and, you know, the residents, people for making sure that they had toiletries and whatnot [00:28:00] and, you know, doing some grocery shop and form on the weekend to get some odds and ends.
Um, but to hear that and be able to be part of an organization that provides that, um, it, it is something wonderful, uh, because I think it goes above and beyond to provide a service. And not only are we giving you the. [00:28:20] And all the components that go in with the guide dog training, but trying to make you feel comfortable and at home as much as we can.
I mean, we know we can't replicate home, but we can try and make it as comfortable of a state, uh, while you're, while you're there on campus. So, Eric, what's your favorite
Timothy: part about
Eric: your job? Oh, man. The favorite part of the job. So [00:28:40] currently, um, my role at leader dog is so to become a guide dog mobility instructor.
You have to go through a three-year paid intern. Where you're essentially doing coursework and, um, all kinds of other activities on top of the tasks of the job. So training dogs and teaching clients. Um, and [00:29:00] so I get the Liberty of being able to work with people who are still in their apprenticeship and I kind of guide them and I will say my favorite moment, and this goes for dogs and for people, um, is when I get to watch somebody else get the aha.
Um, when they, when I see the light bulb [00:29:20] click on, uh, after I've either explained something or I've demonstrated something or I've walked them through it and then had them try it in real time to see somebody getting it, even if it's not perfect or pretty. But when it's, when you see it click in somebody in somebody's brain, I don't, I don't know how to, [00:29:40] I wish I.
No, that's good. That
Leslie: gets it right. When it's starting to work, everybody's getting it together. And Timothy, did
Christina: you have one of those moments that leader knock?
Timothy: Well, like I said, in previous podcast, I had a lot of doubts at first when I got there and it took about a week and then eventually it just, okay, [00:30:00] this is alright, this is everything's working out.
Great. So all my questions and my doubts just went away and then I could relax. And, uh, that was, that was, that was fantastic. And so I was listening more to Meredith and I guess she appreciated
Eric: that too, but she did. She did. So [00:30:20] it was
Timothy: just when you got it, it got it. And then it just went a little bit smoother after that.
And it was, it was great when we got to that point.
Eric: Yeah.
Leslie: And just reminder worldwide, there are 285 million people who are visually impaired. And out of that only 10% of those people are traveling independently with a white cane or a guide dog, which means 90% [00:30:40] of people who are blind or visually impaired are not getting around independently, whether that be with a cane or guide dog.
So these services are incredibly important and incredibly rewarding on all ends. So from our instructor perspective and our client perspective, We're all incredibly grateful for this opportunity and this organization that we're able to do this. [00:31:00] So thank you so much, Eric, for being here with us today, we really appreciate it.
And thank you everyone for joining us. We really appreciate you taking the time to listen to the taking the lead PI. I'm your host, Leslie Haskins with host Timothy Cuneo and Christina Hapner. We hope you enjoyed today's episode. Please join us next time. As we continue to share [00:31:20] stories and educate about the world of blindness.
Yes. And
Christina: if you like today's podcast and make sure to hit subscribe in, check us out wherever podcast streak .