Christina: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Taking the Lead podcast where we empower people to be unstoppable. I'm Christina Heppner with my co-host Timothy Kuo and guest host Alyssa Otis. So it's a couple days after Valentine's Day.
Alyssa: Ah, yes, yes. Good. This
Christina: was, uh, activity. Sounds so excited over there.
Alyssa: I was gonna say I had a great one.
I don't know. It's my husband and my first Valentine's together. Oh. Oh, stop. Yes, yes. Congratulations. Yeah. Thank you. Well, I guess I should say as a married couple. Yeah. We have, uh, We have celebrated it before. I didn't just meet him last week. Yeah. Um, no, it was great. It was, uh, what did you guys do, you and your boyfriend?
Um, well
Christina: this is our first Valentine's
Alyssa: Day. Oh, God. So we're hoping what? The flowers, yeah. I mean, Gliz, what
Christina: did he get you? So, I don't know, like, well, we're doing, so we are not celebrating on Valentine's Day. We decided not to do [00:01:00] that. We're actually gonna be celebrating today. Ah. So we're doing like a date day.
Ooh. That sort of thing. Fun. Yeah. That was fun. Yeah. We've just had, it's one of those things where like the holiday season was so insanely busy. Yes.
Alyssa: You feel like you're not even recouped yet.
Christina: Yes. And. Absolutely. Then it just started again, Uhhuh , midway through January, and it hasn't stopped like we do. Um, we put together each another calendar with like all of our activities for the month.
Sure. Like what we're doing, what each person has, because we just can't keep it. I'm a very visual person, so I have to write everything down. We have a paper calendar too. Yeah. Yeah. I have two calendars. I have one in my fridge. I have one in my like office bedroom area and. I have to write every little thing down.
Ah-huh. Like, I'm literally like, so Johnny like, what days are you doing this? What days? Because I'm like, I need to know because [00:02:00] then I'll be like, oh, like where is he? Or what does he do? Like?
Alyssa: Well, it knows, even today I asked my husband, I go, so what are your plans for the day? He goes, why does it matter? I go, I just like to know where you're at.
Yeah. . Right. I go, I don't keep crazy tabs. I just like to know. Right. It helps me plan my day. Yeah.
Christina: I am very much a planner. Yes.
Alyssa: Oh, that's so funny. Well, it's good that you're doing it not on Valentine's Day though. Yeah. Cause you didn't have to deal with all the crowds and all of that.
Christina: Yeah. Yes. And like plus I go to bed super early anyway, , right.
So you get up super early too. Yeah, I do. I get up and I go to the gym every, oh gosh, morning. So, yeah, me
Alyssa: too. Definitely every morning.
Timothy: Oh yeah, we celebrated Valentine's. I was on the way to Bon Air on a cruise ship, so, uh oh. Yeah, I'm going somewhere. We were somewhere warmer. Yeah. Than it is right now. Poor
Alyssa: me.
Yeah, I know. Poor you. Going down the eighties, so.
Christina: Oh, man. You know, Tim, like you're [00:03:00] saying, it's 60 degrees in Georgia and then you get to go somewhere even warmer, like,
Alyssa: yeah, come on, stop rubbing it in. You know, winters are
Christina: tough down here. .
Alyssa: Do they even sell shovels at your stores? Snow shovels and salts, man.
Timothy: They
Debbie: do.
Timothy: We do. We get snow here. We'll do you about once a year, so, oh yeah. I like you. Remember last year's dinner in the dark?
Christina: Oh, you welcome. When they went down to film him was their biggest snow storm. That gosh was so funny. I did forget about that. It was like you were here in Michigan about that.
Yeah, it was like here too. He was like, yeah, thanks. Thanks.
Timothy: The film crew was just amazed how many things were closed down. I mean, the whole
Alyssa: town was shut down. Well, yeah. If your infrastructure's not set up for, for snow like that, yeah.
Debbie: No.
Timothy: So we it? Yeah, it snows.
Christina: I know. And dinner in the dark is
Alyssa: coming. I was gonna say, dinner in the dark is coming up.
It's another thing I have, well, I shouldn't say roped my husband into. He was very excited about it. Yeah. But we're gonna kind of [00:04:00] continue our little Valentine's. Love that. And we're gonna do a, uh, Dinner in the dark date night? Yes. Maybe he'll, uh, get a dog walk. Perhaps he'll do the walk. The walk experience with a cane.
Yeah.
Christina: I'm excited. I'm, I mean, it's gonna be my first
Alyssa: one, so this will be my first one in person. Yeah, because you know, with the pandemic, we did virtual for a
Christina: while. Yeah. And then you were an instructor. So I was an
Alyssa: instructor. I was in class for the very first one. Yeah. Yeah. So this will, I'm very excited.
A
Christina: lot of exciting things. And we also. Very exciting guests today. So Alyssa, if you wanna start telling us a little bit about our
Alyssa: podcast guest today. Yeah, so today our guest is somebody that I've known now for 11 years personally, but she's been involved with Leader Dog for many, many years in different capacities.
Christina: And today we are talking with Debbie Kundi. Debbie was at Leader Dog for 30 years and retired a few years ago. She now works with our training volunteers and training staff every Wednesday morning in downtown Rochester. Work on distractions [00:05:00] with dogs and training. Debbie,
Timothy: welcome to the podcast, Debbie.
Uh, so what brought you to
Debbie: Leader Dog? Um, I just needed a job that I needed . I, I was, uh, getting to work around animals. Yeah. Um, I originally started as a dog care attendant and, uh, eventually about a year later, I became a, an instructor.
Alyssa: and you were one of the first female instructors. Yeah, I was the second
Debbie: one.
Alyssa: That's awesome. Is a Yeah. Little fun fact. Yeah.
Debbie: Yeah. There were, uh, 18 other male in instructors at that time.
Alyssa: That's Wow. Crazy. And now to look at it. Yes. You know, we're, we definitely have, you know, males on our training staff, but it is predominantly female. Yes. Oh, that is
Christina: so funny about how that shift happened.
Very cool. So I guess, you know, you kind of told us you wanted to work with [00:06:00] dogs, but what made you wanna go from being a dog care tenant to a guide dog mobility instructor?
Debbie: Um, the, the fact that I, I like to help people and I like to help them so that they can help themselves. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , um, I like teaching, but I'm not an education teacher.
But that seemed to work out really good for me. I really enjoyed that job a lot. .
Christina: Yeah. So being the second female instructor, I mean, things I'm sure have changed a ton. Yes. What was it like, I guess back then, um, you know, in those early days, as you know, how was Guide Talk training different than it is now at Leader
Debbie: Dog?
Well, you know, in whole, people have accepted women in the workforce, and that caught on really rapidly after I started working there. Mm-hmm. . But it was, it was difficult because some of [00:07:00] the things were, uh, that were required of me were like, man, things like lifting heavy. Sure. Super physical. Yes,
Alyssa: very physical.
Yeah. Well, it's cuz a lot of the guys that were here when it started were from military backgrounds. Yes, they were. Yeah, because it was Leader dog started in what, 39? Mm-hmm. . So it was World War ii. Mm-hmm. . And when you started was, I know that obviously the residence was built in 2001. Approximately? Yes.
Uhhuh . So you were here when it was what? The old farmhouse, or no, what, what were you, yeah, I don't, I don't wanna date you, I don't wanna date you back to 39. Debbie, I know that , but after talking to you and Randy, what was, what was the situation on campus here? Well,
Debbie: it was a lot smaller. Sure. The, the. Land was the same.
It's on sitting on 14 acres. Yeah. But most of that 14 acres is taken up by the buildings and the parking lot now. Yeah. Well,
Alyssa: what [00:08:00] did they, it was not the farmhouse, but there was the, was it just called the old residence? The one where the clients had to walk out the stairs and wait through the park area?
Debbie: Yes, we called it. The dormitory. Ah,
Alyssa: there you go. Okay.
Debbie: And of course, the area that you had to go down the stairs and across the driveway, that was called the park area. Yeah. And that's where the D clients took their dogs to relieve themselves.
Alyssa: Gosh, the residence has changed a bunch. .
Debbie: Yes, they have . Yes. And we would line up every morning.
Oh, at six o'clock to take the dogs outside to go to the bathroom and come back in and get ready for the rest of the day. Oh my gosh.
Alyssa: Wow. Your
Christina: day
Alyssa: started at 6:00 AM . Oh, they still start early. We just don't line up. Now everybody has their own park door. , right. ,
Debbie: when
Timothy: I, when I was there, I was at five 30, Christina, so I'm,
Christina: this is six o'clock, so I act like I don't get up early.
Alyssa: you're already at the gym. I am , [00:09:00]
Debbie: so,
Timothy: so Debbie, I can imagine all the techniques and over the years have changed so much from when you started and they are right now. What are some of the techniques that have changed?
Debbie: Well, first of all, that one thing that I just described, uh, is totally different. We are treating people more as individuals.
and letting them be more responsible for their actions and teaching them at the same time to take care of the dogs. Mm-hmm. , we still teach that, but you know, those circumstances have changed. We use food now. Yes, we use food rewards and that was forbidden when I started. Mm-hmm. , when I was, went all through my apprenticeship and.
10 or 15 years. Yeah. Food rewards for dogs were forbidden. Wow.
Christina: That's
Debbie: crazy. Yeah. Well, it, they claimed that it, it caused dogs to beg and things like that. Oh, okay. And they were only working for the food. Mm-hmm. not for the [00:10:00] enjoyment of it.
Alyssa: Yeah. And now we find what, it's just a quicker way to get 'em to learn.
They still love the job, but they share love food. Yes. Right? Yes. Little lab.
Christina: Yes. Yeah. That's so funny. I've never heard anybody say that. , you're, you're
Alyssa: gonna hear a lot of weird things, lamb, Christina.
Christina: Oh my gosh. Stop All these new lines that we're gonna start using.
Alyssa: Sounds like a shirt. Sounds like a new book.
Sounds like a new gift shop shirt, right? . Oh man. And so Debbie, now you are, uh, working still with training. So you retired Yes. But you couldn't stay away, right? . Right, . That's very true. Yeah. So now you come back and tell us a little bit about what you do, uh, with our downtown volunteers and what they do.
Okay.
Debbie: Um, well, it's only for two hours on Wednesday mornings and we, me and four or five other volunteers will go out and we'll, A distraction for any of the dogs that they're going to take out in [00:11:00] training will, uh, have a squeaky toy, a ball, a Frisbee, uh, even a baby stroller and things like that that dogs, the dogs don't see every day.
And the trainer, it's up to the trainers to teach the dogs not to, um, bother with things like, .
Christina: That is so cool. Like that. There's a whole day. Oh yeah. Dedicated to that in training.
Alyssa: That's it. If you wanna see some cool training, you hang out around downtown Rochester. Wednesday mornings. Yes. Yeah. Yes. . You've got all the instructors down there.
Yes. That is so
Christina: cool. Mm-hmm. . And so is it always like a different distraction? Are they usually the same distractions? How does that work?
Debbie: Well each, each person that's going to be the distractor takes on a different. . Um, and sometimes the instructors say, oh, we need somebody to walk towards us with a dog.
Yeah. Um, uh, when instructors will bring a. Uh, pet dog. [00:12:00] Yeah. For us to use as a distraction. Yes.
Alyssa: Yeah. We love using our pet dogs for Yeah. Right. So they've gotta work. Yeah. I mean, come on. That
Christina: is so cool. I mean, that's a little bit of an acting thing too for our volunteers. You get to pretend to like do something else.
Absolutely. I kinda wanna do that. That sounds like a lot
Alyssa: of fun. I'm sure the instructors would love to have you.
Christina: I'll be like, um, I can't do my job for two hours on a Wednesday morning. I gotta go. Yeah, right. .
Timothy: Yeah. I remember a car full of dogs barking at us while we were working. I think they were planted.
Alyssa: So you know what? It's very possible. Who knows? . I think they were
Christina: planted. . That's so funny. .
Alyssa: Oh, and Debbie, you don't just do that though. I know. As an instructor, we've called on you many times to take dogs into your own home for certain things. Yes. Dogs that are
Debbie: in training. . Yes. Um, that is part of a volunteer job there.
Yeah. Um, I'll take dogs that possibly have been trained and they're completely trained, but they have an anxiety in the [00:13:00] kennel or something. Mm-hmm. and, um, I'll take them into my house and treat them like a lit dog puppy. But, um, at the same time letting them relax and enjoy being a house dog again. Yeah.
Yeah. .
Christina: That is so cool. So how many, how dogs, I guess, do you know how many dogs you've had in your home that have gone on to
Debbie: I really don't, I, I never keep track of it. Yeah. But I, I think, I was thinking back and I think last year I probably had. Six or seven different dogs.
Alyssa: Oh my goodness. And you keep 'em for some of them for a while.
Oh
Debbie: yeah. Some. Most of them I've had for at least two or three months. Yeah.
Christina: Wow. Mm-hmm. , that's a lot of dogs. In a years. That's fan.
Alyssa: That's whenever we needed somebody, we're like, let's call Deb. Debbie. Debbie will get done. .
Christina: That's amazing. . Um, to do that cuz you know, you are I'm sure becoming a little bit [00:14:00] attached to these dogs as well, you know, when they're in your home for that
long.
Debbie: Right? Well it's, it's not really that much different than when I was training dogs. That's, uh, you really learn quickly. Mm-hmm. to not. You can attach yourself to the dog, but you need to be able to let it go. Yeah. Yeah. And my goal was always, I'm training this dog for you. You know, you can have this dog.
Yeah. It's not my dog, it's
Christina: yours. But so what is it like, um, you know, you went from training to now, you know, to rehoming dogs. Is it kind of that same feeling when you see that dog who you rehomed go on to be with a client like it was when he, you were in training? Yes.
Debbie: It's very much so. Especially if I get really attached to the dog.
Yeah, yeah,
Alyssa: yeah. . Well, and you've got some, uh, career change Yes. Dog of your own? Yeah. One that I trained, I think. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And, uh,
Debbie: so Oh, no, no. My dog wasn't trained with, he [00:15:00] wasn't later dog. He, but he was raised. Oh, he has, uh, hip dysplasia. That's
Alyssa: right. Yeah. That's hard. That's right.
Debbie: Oh man. I did have one of your dogs from
Alyssa: a rehome.
Ah, it's, you know what, there's just so many that go. There's so many that go to Debbie that it's hard to keep track. And he did go on to graduation that, that's why the name's sticking with me. . Um, that's,
Debbie: no, I have Thomas Edison. That's right.
Alyssa: I knew it was from Yes. I knew it was from those same, uh, razor. I was gonna ask
Timothy: Debbie, what's one of her proudest moments that she's had in her career?
Debbie: The leader dog. Well, you know, that's a question that's really hard to answer. Mm-hmm. , there's been so many really good times. You know, things, one of the, my most favorite times was graduation day, so to speak. Yeah. We didn't actually have a formal graduation, but everybody was getting ready and going home to begin their.
Yeah. Again,
Alyssa: it's so crazy to see from [00:16:00] like day one of class Yes. To graduation, you really feel like, not, not you, but, but the team has accomplished so much. Yes. And it's a proud feeling. Yes. Yeah. Um, what do you miss about being a G D M I? I've gotta, I gotta know.
Debbie: Um, I actually miss working with the people.
Yeah. I, I, I miss that. It is a great, good group. You know, every five months I got a whole new group of friends. Mm-hmm.
Alyssa: And you meet people all over the world. Yes. Yes. I mean, you've got friends in Spain and probably Taiwan a, a Argentina, , Argentina.
Debbie: Yes. .
Christina: That's amazing. Mm-hmm. . That is so cool. Alyssa, I'm sure you're gonna start to miss that.
Uh, yeah. Too, a little bit. I definitely, being in
Alyssa: marketing now, I definitely do. My, my instructor friends are still texting me though, what's going on, so it, it's nice to still stay in the loop a little bit. Yes.
Christina: And, and I know. , Debbie, you probably went through a ton of changes with the leader dog, you know?
Yes. As many years as you were there. So was it there any challenging parts of being a G D [00:17:00] M I through those changes in all of that? Uh,
Debbie: yeah. It, it was probably when we started with the TREAT training and, um, we used clicker training as well, and, uh, it was. . It was difficult for me to learn that because I was already up there in age
Alyssa: Yeah. Well, and it's difficult learning a new training skill. It's muscle memory.
Debbie: Yes, yes it is. And but I think I always thought that this was the best way to train dogs or any animals really.
Alyssa: Yeah. Yeah. Do you, uh, do you still have your. . Yes I do. Yeah, you do. I still have a harness. I was gonna ask, I was gonna ask, you've got your leash and your harness.
We're very attached to those things. Yes, we are. . I thought I lost mine the other day and I was, look, I went on every truck I found it. Things like that. So
Christina: do each GMI then have their own leash?
Debbie: Yes. Uhhuh. . You have your own leash in your own harness. Mm-hmm. . And usually the harness is, uh, [00:18:00] big enough to fit all the dogs.
Cuz some dogs are petite. Yes. And some dogs are quite large.
Alyssa: And we're very parti like, I know my leash. Yes. See, I could pick it out of a, a basket. No way.
Christina: Oh yeah. I did not know that. See, I just figured, you know, you use whatever. One comes with the dog .
Alyssa: And that's exactly why I have my name on my leash so people like you don't take 'em.
I'll
Christina: be like, oh, this has a name on it. It says, well, I'm just
Alyssa: kidding. It says keep your paws off my leash. . Does it really? Yeah, it really does.
Christina: That's good. Funny. Well, if Alyssa, if you ever leave your leash in our office, I will know not to touch it. . Yes, I will blame Leslie. She's not here, so I can blame her.
beautiful.
Alyssa: I blamed her for stealing your chair the other day, so it's fine. It was me, .
Christina: That was funny. So just a little story in between this. Leslie and I here in the office and Alyssa was in the office and I was like, oh man, Leslie, he was taking the chairs. She's always like, we've [00:19:00] always had our own chairs.
Well, I'll come to find out, Alyssa was the one who was switching the chair. .
Alyssa: I just didn't say anything. I was gonna let Leslie take the fall. .
Christina: Yeah. But anyways, now back to, yeah. You know, a little, little rant off there, but,
Alyssa: um,
Christina: so yeah. , you know, you were a G Dite for so long and then you started to volunteer.
I guess, is there any advice you'd give to someone who either wants to be a guy dog mobility instructor or, or like start volunteering with Leader Dog to see if that's something they would want to do?
Debbie: Um, well the volunteering is, you know, easy enough. You just sign up and whatever your skill area is, they, they will assign you so, , I know that.
Knowledge about Leader Dog. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And when I first started volunteering, I worked in client services. Okay. And I did a lot of, um, talking to previous [00:20:00] clients, you know, checking to make sure everything was going well and things like that. Or I would do callbacks if someone, um, needed some help with the problem.
They were. .
Christina: Very cool. And so what about someone who wants to become A G D M? I guess, what advice would you give to them as someone who is in the field for forever?
Debbie: Right. Um, well, I think that one of the things that they need to learn is first about blindness. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Um, I really didn't know that much about blindness when I started, but, um, and there wasn't that much available to me.
now. Everything. Yeah. They have everything available to you. You can go on the internet and, and learn everything. Mm-hmm. that I just mentioned, you know, and liking dogs and working with people. Yes, yes. The people. are, are the, the thing that you really have to mm-hmm. . Yeah.
Alyssa: I don't think a lot of people know, [00:21:00] you know, a lot of people get into it thinking, oh, I love dogs.
Well, yeah, that's great. But like you said, the so much more to this than that.
Debbie: Oh yeah. The people is more than half. Yeah.
Christina: Yeah. Easily. Uhhuh . Well, you have to really know. Because you guys match the dog to the person, so no. Yes. Having good people skills and being able to like adapt to some the way someone learns.
You guys do
Alyssa: a lot. Yeah. Well, and I'm sure Debbie, you can say that from the start, you know, you only got better at matching people. Yes. And matching dogs the more experience you have. Yes. Doing it. Mm-hmm. , it's a very experience based job. So when somebody's got 30 years, like we wanna learn from you . Right.
We need to learn from you.
Debbie: Yep. .
Timothy: Well, Debbie, as a client, I wanna thank you for, you know, those years that you put into Leader Dog, you've changed so many lives Yeah. And helped change lives with all the dogs you've done. And I wanna thank you for being dedicated
Debbie: like
Christina: that. Well, thank you. Yeah. And you know, Timothy, I'm sure it's great for you to hear from someone who was there for 30 years doing, [00:22:00] you know, the job of a trainer, like a trainer who trained, um, glacier.
Yeah,
Timothy: I mean it just shows you the leader. Dog is some, it's been there since 39, 19 39, and that's, it'll continue as long as we have our donors and stuff. And it's just, it's stability and it's nice to know that we've got a, we got a rock that's there for us every day. Every day we go out
Alyssa: and just like Timothy, thanks you for, for all of your training.
We the other instructors, thank you for your knowledge cuz like I said, we learn so much from the people that have been here and gone through this before us. Like it's ever changing, but at the same time, it doesn't change at all.
Debbie: Yes. You know, and it's not book
Alyssa: learning either. It's not at all. Yeah. No.
Yeah. And I'm sure you've had many apprentices that you've, you know, had Oh, Yes. That
Debbie: you've taught. Yeah, I, I did, I did, uh, my three year apprenticeship and then I was an instructor for many years, well, 15 probably. And then I became an in, uh, [00:23:00] Superintendent. Mm-hmm. Or
Alyssa: supervisor? Supervisor. Supervisor. Yeah.
What is that?
Christina: Supervisor? Yeah.
Debbie: Um, they, they handle the training teams. Okay. And now I think there's five
Alyssa: or six. There's uh, five, and then an apprentice team. Oh, okay. Yes. An apprentice team. I know we'll have to catch up after this. Yeah. So , yeah, there's uh, five teams and then one team that is first year apprentices.
Okay. Very
Debbie: nice. Mm-hmm. . That's really interesting.
Alyssa: It's gonna be a really nice way to learn. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very
Christina: cool. Well, Thank you Debbie, so much for joining us. We learned so much, and thank you to our listeners for listening to the Taking the Lead podcast. I'm Christina Hepner with host Timothy Kuo and guest host Alyssa Otis.
We hope you enjoyed learning about Debbie in her Leader dog journey. Please join us next week as we continue to dive into the world of blindness.
Alyssa: If you'd like to learn more about applying for Leader Dog for our services, you can head to leader dog.org [00:24:00] or call us at (888) 777-5332. Don't forget you can reach us at taking the lead@leaderdog.org with any questions or ideas.
And if you'd like today's podcast, make sure to hit subscribe and check us out wherever Podcast Stream.
Christina: This season of the Taking the Lead podcast is brought to you by a longtime supporter of Leader Dog, the Mary P DL Halleran Foundation. As you may know, generous donors like this one make it possible to achieve our mission.
The Mary p Dani Halleran Foundation supports the study of mathematics and mathematics education. For more information about our generous sponsor, visit their website at www dot dol chi halloran foundation dot.