Christina: [00:00:00] Welcome to the taking the lead podcast, where we empower people to be unstoppable. I'm Christina, ER, with my cohost, Leslie Haskins and Timothy Kuo.
Leslie: Leslie has some great news. You guys, I do. We found a house. I know. Oh my Lord. It's been a crazy process. So we had to list our house, put our house up to for sale first.
Yeah. Before even finding a house. So that was incredibly stressful, but we sold our house very quickly, which was. Um, and then yeah, we found a new house. So we're really excited. I know she
Christina: showed me the pictures. Timothy, this house is like beautiful to grow her family in it. I might move in
Ellen: well, that's
Timothy: good.
I mean, Leslie deserves that she got a nice little family and it's nice
Leslie: as they found her home. Yeah. Thank you. I'm very excited to have space for the kids to kind of run around a little bit more. I'm excited for them to have a separate bathroom. We've been living with one bathroom and, and four people who are fully body trained.
So [00:01:00]
Christina: Indeed's fully possible
Leslie: trained. It's been an experience. So I'm looking forward to having multiple toilets in the. That'll be great for everybody. Yes. Does it have a man cave? it doesn't have a man cave. I don't think anyway, at least not yet. Um, who knows what my husband's plans are for the basement, but I don't see it as a man cave.
Christina: But she has an extra bedroom for
Leslie: me. oh,
Christina: no
Leslie: slumber party. We do have a guest bedroom, which is something we're excited about. Cuz our family all live like an hour and 45 minutes away from us. So when family comes over, they come over for the weekend. So they stay just like we do when we go back, um, to visit them.
So I'm excited to have room for our in-laws and my parents and family and our nieces and nephews. And. All the people to come and stay comfortably. So nice. You're
Christina: gonna have all the like events at your house. And she has like a nice yard too, from the pictures. I mean, I haven't been
Leslie: there, but , [00:02:00] I'll be getting the keys and Christine will just showing's can't
Christina: waiter.
Leslie: Yes, I am looking forward to, I'm not actually looking forward to physically moving the idea of packing up. All of the things we've had in our house for seven years is very daunt. Oh,
Timothy: yeah. You collect a lot of stuff,
Leslie: don't you? I I'm realizing we have cuz sometimes I think about it, I'm like, oh, it's not that bad.
And then I think about like, oh, you gotta empty. Like every drawer, every
Christina: clock. Yeah. So you're gonna find some fun things that you're like, I didn't even know I had
this.
Leslie: I love that. I guarantee yeah. Garage
Christina: sale.
Leslie: Yeah. yeah. Right. So yeah, very excited. Yes. Looking forward to the fall.
Christina: Yes. And we also have a very exciting guest on today.
Leslie: We do our guest today is newer to the leader dog family within just the last couple years, but has somehow still managed to participate. And I believe three of the leader, dog programs [00:03:00] she participated in ONM, Tom talks and guide dog training. Yes. Ellen
Christina: recently graduated from Loyola university, new Orleans, where she studied graphic design and advertising, and she competed for her university's track and field team.
She's now a graphic designer working in sports and entertainment marketing, and she spends her free time enjoying the outdoors reading and making art.
Timothy: Welcome to the podcast. Ellen, I'm glad that you're here. Can you tell us a little bit more about yourself?
Ellen: Thank you. Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here. Um, This whole vision loss situation is very new to me, but it's been great that I was able to find later dogs pretty early on in the process.
And it's just been incredibly helpful to have them assist me through the journey.
Leslie: Do you mind telling us a little bit about your vision and kind of how you were diagnosed and when kind of a little history, if you don't mind?
Ellen: Yeah, definitely. So the short answer to that question is I have retinitis pigmentosa.
But the [00:04:00] much longer answer to that question is I actually didn't know that I was legally blind until quite recently, even though I likely have been my entire life. So I, I can explain that a little bit better. yeah. Yeah.
Christina: I I'm curious how, how, cuz obviously you've had your vision like this, your whole life.
So you knew nothing different, I guess. How did
Leslie: you find.
Ellen: Yeah. So I was diagnosed with RP when I was 10. I wanna say I'm just, I'd seen a regular optometrist and they saw some specs in my eyes and sent me to a retinal specialist. Uh, but all they told me was that I was night blind and that my peripheral vision was not very good, uh, and that they didn't really know how, or if it would progress.
And so that was kind of that. And I just moved on with my. And then you fast forward to 2021. I was graduating college trying to figure out what I was gonna do with my life. And I had some concerns about being independent with my inability to really [00:05:00] travel at night at all. So I decided to go back to the doctor and kind of.
Explain the situation to them because I, I thought about a guy dog for night travel, but when I made some phone calls about that, I pretty quickly discovered that I wasn't eligible because I wasn't legally blind. I just couldn't see at night. But when I talked to the doctor about that, he immediately interrupted me and was like, oh no, no, you are legally blind.
You have been just. They didn't really explain that to me. ,
Timothy: that's just the crazy way of how you went through your life with recognize pigmentosa. My story has just been a slowly degeneration, but yours is a little bit different. It just shows you how much difference of people's losing or vision, uh, in life.
It's just, it's crazy how the stories are different.
Ellen: Yeah. And I think it's pretty wild. A lot of people hear my story and they're like, well, how did you not know you were blind? But it's all I've ever seen. Like, I don't, I don't know. It's like to look through someone else's eyes. So I don't know that I have a much smaller field of vision than [00:06:00] most people.
Leslie: That is such a good point. Ellen, I think so many people, you just learn to live with it. You adapt, it's kind of like survival, you know, whatever you've got you use to the best of your ability and you don't know any different. And that happens to so many people, but so were you a driver previously or have you never driven.
Ellen: So I did use to drive. I, I had like horrible anxiety while I was doing it, but I thought I just, you know, didn't like driving a lot of people. Don't like driving. And luckily I lived in the middle of nowhere. So, uh, there wasn't a lot of other cars on the road. Um, and I, I didn't drive at night obviously, so I didn't really end up driving a lot of places just cuz.
Christina: Yeah. And it's crazy because you didn't know. So you just, you know, went and got your license, like every other 16 year old would and did all of that. And
Leslie: it's funny cuz they do don't they do the eye test at the well yeah, but if she's got, she's got she's pretty good. Yeah. They
Ellen: only test your, um, like visual acuity.
That is
Christina: true. I didn't even think about that.
Leslie: Wow. So I wonder like really at [00:07:00] what age you were legally blind. Yeah.
Ellen: I. When I was diagnosed, I guess I was, which was, I think I was 10. Oh my and I was legally blind then, which I think is kind of wild. They didn't disclose that information to me, but, um, we're working through it now.
Leslie: that is insane to me, Ellen, that you went in at 10 and you were most likely legally blind then. And nobody mentioned that as like an I
Ellen: very clearly remember the language they used being that your peripheral vision. Isn't very good. I'm like, isn't very good versus being blind is like kinda
Leslie: different well, right.
Cuz think of all the services that you missed out on.
Ellen: Exactly. That was the most frustrating part for me is like I could have had a cane in my hand when I was 10, instead of trying to tackle all of that, you know, in my twenties.
Christina: So how did you hear, um, I'm curious, you know, you recently found out that you are legally blind.
How did you hear about leader dog?
Ellen: Yeah. So I grew up in Michigan. So when I like just typed into Google guide dog schools, leader dogs was the first thing that popped up. [00:08:00] And you guys also had an on M program, which I hadn't done before. And I knew that was a necessary step to getting a guide dog. So it seemed like the natural, um, place for me to go.
And I'm very thrilled that I did. It was a great experience.
Timothy: So when you, when you came to leader dog, you got your on M instructions, your training mm-hmm . So what was it like for the first time when you got all those skills to use that out in public? And how did you adapt
Ellen: with that? Yeah, so I hated the cane I didn't wanna use it.
I, it all, like I've said, it all happened very quickly, so I hadn't really gotten my mind wrapped around the fact that I was blind yet. So I didn't feel like I needed to use a cane. I was like, well, I'm not really blind. I don't need. Um, but I did. So I have to give all the things in the world to my om instructor, Christie, who not only did a fantastic job of teaching me the techniques of using a cane, but really helped to show me how much I could benefit from.
Acknowledging that I need help and that I'm blind and
Leslie: can [00:09:00] assist me.
Christina: Yeah, that, that is amazing. And I remember when you were here for O and M, I was doing pictures and video for digital marketing, and I happened to, I met you when you were at what Oakland university and you guys were walking on the campus.
That was really cool. Um, to kind of just chat with you and get to know you then. Um, and cuz you were already out of college. Yeah, I had just graduated. Yes mm-hmm so you didn't have to go back to a college campus. So was it different for you to practice on the
Leslie: college campus?
Ellen: Um, for me, it was different being back in Michigan.
Like I said, I grew up around there and then I went to school out of state and I had just been back home again. So it felt kind of weird that it was like, I haven't really been here for four years and now here I am using a cane and it was almost like nervous about seeing people that I knew and having to explain all of that
Leslie: to them.
You bring up a really good point. That's something we talk about often is, you know, [00:10:00] Nobody's excited to use a cane typically. Um, and so that's a really big adjustment and there's this little bit of a bubble when you're at leader dog and on our campus. If it feels safe, it, everybody else is using a cane.
So it's comforting. Um, your instructors are there to support you. I know Christie was a really good instructor for you. You guys got along really, really well. Um, but then transitioning back home. So you're kind of leaving this little safety bubble. Um, and then now you're. To your home environment, traveling with the cane.
What was that like? What were those conversations like as people started to see you with this cane? Yeah,
Ellen: it was definitely a challenge for a lot of PE like a lot of reasons, both for how I was feeling about it and the way people responded to it. Cause on my end I still was, I don't wanna say I was in denial.
Obviously I was using a cane, but I felt like I don't really need this and I need, I felt like I needed to explain that to people. Isn't really true. And I've definitely gotten a lot more comfortable with that now, but it also is just challenging for people to see [00:11:00] me using a cane because anyone that knows me at all knows that I'm incredibly passionate about art and design and I'm constantly making things.
So it's really hard for people to reconcile. Like how is this girl blind um, but I guess I've gotten better at giving my spiel about what I can't see. And hopefully people are. Starting to understand more that being blind doesn't mean seeing nothing at all.
Christina: Yeah. And that's an amazing point because we have so many clients that do art in that sort of stuff.
You can still, you adapt in a different way. You do things in a different way. And it's like anyone who's an artist or, you know, a musician, everyone does things in different ways. So it doesn't stop you from doing what you love to do.
Ellen: No, not at all. And in a lot of ways, I feel like my vision. Really influenced the style that I drawn a lot, which I didn't realize I've always drawn in a particular way with like a lot of detail and small spaces.
And I, I just thought that was how I drew, but looking back now, I'm like, well, I'm [00:12:00] drawing where I can see, like I can't see the whole picture at once, but I can see all the little details. So that's why I draw that style.
Leslie: That's really interesting. I hadn't really thought about that, but you're right. Like, looking back, that probably is exactly why you're drawing kind of starting in this small detailed, and then gradually expanding it.
So you're moving your vision and your eyes around. I'm so curious too. Um, you know, a lot of times when clients come to campus, we, we give them the cane. Right. And we introduce 'em and we're like saying that this is gonna help in so many different ways. We talk about it being an extension of your body, taking it everywhere.
And so many times we'll see clients, right? We finish up the lesson, they fold up their cane, put it in their pocket, and then they just go walking back into the building, um, because the lesson's done and they don't fully adapt the cane into their lifestyle. Um, and that's a really, really tricky thing to do.
have you found that carrying the cane with you all the time and or now you have a guide dog, has it helped kind of answer or, or make, um, some situations a little bit more comfortable? Like if you were to accidentally [00:13:00] knock into something or if somebody's waving and then you don't wave back, has it made those types of situations and conversations a little bit easier?
Ellen: Oh, absolutely. That's definitely something I struggled with. Um, my whole life growing up is I was constantly afraid of running into someone, especially like running into someone who's older or maybe like not in great health. And I end up looking just like a really inconsiderate young person. And that's obviously not the case, obviously trying so hard not to run into people, but just looking at me.
You're not gonna know that I can't see you. So I do feel like. That has helped, um, the cane help with that a lot. But honestly, I know you probably get this from a lot of people that are guide dog users. No one thinks she's my guide dog, a hundred of people think that I'm training her. Um, so it doesn't really have the same effect, but don't.
Timothy: So how does the vision loss impacted your school and your career choices in your life?
Ellen: Yeah, so I didn't [00:14:00] know that I was blind when I was going through school and making career decisions. So I guess it didn't, and I'm that I, um, have gotten a job that is comfortable with where I'm at with my
Leslie: vision. So, one thing we talked about while you were, um, joining Tom talks, cuz Tom talks is a virtual program that we put on for 18 to 24 year olds to really kind of talk.
The next steps of independent travel. Talk about networking. Talk about, uh, social media. We had a whole bunch of different conversations, but one of the things that you brought up quite frequently, and we talked about in Tom talks too, is just disclosing a disability and going through that interview process, um, when to tell and when to ask, ask for accommodations and things like that, do you wanna tell us a little bit just about your experience?
Ellen: Yeah, definitely. Cause that was something I was very nervous and uncomfortable and unsure about going into that process, especially with the field that I work in. It's not something that most graphic designers and graphic design firms, [00:15:00] um, deal with on a regular basis. So I really wasn't sure how to approach it.
Um, But I feel that the age of, um, all this remote learning and remote interviewing really worked in my favor because I can fake it a lot better. You know, I don't have to worry about missing a handshake and doing that sort of thing during the interview process. So I, I just went through my interview process without even touching on it, because with, I think a lot of people that experience vision loss, um, Know that it's just a curiosity to a lot of people.
Like they just wanna ask a lot of questions about that because they don't, they're curious, which I totally understand, but I don't want a job interview to be about. My medical history. I want it to be about my qualifications for the role. So I didn't really touch on that during my interviews. Um, and then once I did find a job and went with that job, I didn't disclose that until about a co I think two months in, cause I just wanted to show them that I'm capable of doing this job and.
I, I was [00:16:00] over the moon with the response I got from my employer and my team. I couldn't have asked for a more understanding group of people. They were really great about, um, being patient with me about how much I wanted to disclose to them and disclose to the broader team. Um, And really just, we're so welcoming and kind and accommodating.
Leslie: I am so happy to hear that. And you also brought up so many good points when we think about going for interviews, right? Most people are just planning, uh, for the content and what their skills are and all these different things. But. For someone who's blind or visually impaired, they have to think about how they're gonna get to that interview.
What's gonna happen once they get in the doors, are they gonna be able to safely and independently navigate to wherever the interview is taking place or those handshakes that you may missed or uncomfortable situations or locating the chair. And so sometimes you probably don't even get to focus on your actual skills or the content.
Of the actual interview, because there's so much kind of before work ahead of that. Um, and then, like you said too, you don't want the interview to be focused on [00:17:00] your, your, um, visual condition. Right. And answering all those curiosity questions you wanna be there because you're qualified for the job.
You've got the skills to do it, and you want them to, to see that besides anything else. So. And I think you made such a great point of this new virtual world of being able to have zoom meetings and interviews like that is really a relief, cuz it takes away a lot of barriers that people who are blind or visually impaired face plus I'm sure so many other people who have difficulties with travel.
Um, so I think that's just a really good point and I hope anybody who's listening who's maybe in hiring or HR, anything like that takes those things into consideration. Cuz that can be a very, uh, stressful and anxiety situ.
Timothy: So Alan, why did you decide to go back to leader, dog, get a guide dog. I know why I did, but your story is probably different than
Leslie: mine.
Ellen: Yeah. So as I think you probably could tell from what I mentioned earlier, guide dog was always my goal. I, I knew I wanted a guide dog and learning to use a cane stone [00:18:00] to that point. And I had just such an incredible experience at leader dogs with O and. There was really no question about where I was gonna go, go back.
I knew I was going back.
Leslie: And so you came what? Not too long ago, right?
Ellen: Yeah. I was just there at the end of February.
Leslie: And tell us about it. Tell us about your guide dog.
Ellen: Be careful what you for.
I am. So in love, I have never been happier and more confident. I feel like a completely different person with her.
Christina: Oh, love to hear
Leslie: that. What kind of dog did you get?
Ellen: She is a yellow lab. She is, I mean, I don't wanna be mean to any other dogs, but she is with the dog in the world.
Leslie: yes. And what is her name?
Ellen: Windham. But she also goes by Winnie her little ears just worked
Leslie: out she's like me, me. And so you've only been working
Christina: with her. February. And I, I guess, what has that been like? What was that [00:19:00] transition? Like you come to leader, dog, you know, you work with the trainers, the instructors with your guy dog, but then you have to go home and you have to do everything.
And you guys have only been a team for, you know, less than half a year. Um, what has that been like?
Ellen: Yeah, I am just absolutely in awe of her and how quickly she has adapted and really just made this home for her. I like you mentioned all those things about, you know, you're in a really safe environment at leader dogs and, you know, there's people watching you and making sure that you're doing everything right.
So I was definitely nervous to go back home and tackle the world alone, but she is. An absolute rock star. Every time we, um, kind of push the limits on doing something that I'm not really sure if we're ready for it yet. She just blows me away every time. And have you
Timothy: guys really started melding together?
Is it real quick? Did it surprise you? How well and how quick it happened for you guys?
Ellen: Oh, absolutely. I mean, I feel like she just knows exactly what I need all the time. She's always a good [00:20:00] dog and she's always focused. Don't get me wrong. But when we're making our regular routes just around my neighborhood and just like exercise walks, her nose might be on the ground, you know, sniff fun around a little bit more.
But when we're in really crowded areas where I really need her help, she's just absolutely locked in. She's like, I know my mom needs me right now. I am 100% focused
Leslie: on my. It's incredible how intuitive the dogs are and they really recognize situations they can get away with maybe just a little bit more when they really need to be focused.
They're just like kids in that sense.
Ellen: Exactly. And I can say she also, maybe this isn't a good story. Perhaps, she's not obeying me here, but I'm an ice cream lover. Like that's an understatement. I have an obsession with ice cream. and I, where this girl, she finds every ice cream shop. Like I'll be in a completely new city.
I've never been in before just walking down the street. And all of a sudden she's pulling me to a door and I look up and it's an ice cream shop. Like I, how she does it, but she just know what she knows what I need. Oh my gosh.
Leslie: I love funny. That's so
Ellen: [00:21:00] much. And I, I told this story of my parents and they're like, you're making this up.
Like you have to be lying right now. There's no way that happened. Like you told her to go there, but no, she
Leslie: just knows what I want. That is so funny. So who was her trainer? We'll have to talk to them. Are they an ice cream lover as well?
Ellen: I don't know. I think so. I worked with Kevin and. You just made the absolute best match here.
I just want that now, like this dog is perfect for
Leslie: me. that's so funny. Yeah. The match is a huge, huge thing. And we've talked about that a couple different times, but there's so much that goes into it. And then a lot of it is I think just that little gut instinct and magic that the, uh, guide dog mobility instructors have the knowledge there is incredible.
Yes.
I
Christina: just can't get over the chick's taking you to ice cream drops like.
Leslie: Man. Does she get like a popcorn? Is that her motivation to, so I
Ellen: haven't done that yet because I'm afraid that she'll like, be even worse about, oh, maybe she's a little bit older. Yeah.
Christina: She might never take you anywhere else. Once you give her, [00:22:00] that'll like, be like do to work and she'll take you to you.
The ice cream shop done the
Leslie: tree funny. . So what is the, the biggest difference then that you would say, but from traveling with the cane to now traveling with your guide dog?
Ellen: Oh my gosh. I mean, where do I even start? I just am, I've never traveled so confidently in my life as I have with her. And while the cane worked wonders and making me feel more confident in, um, like not having to be constantly focused on seeing.
It's still a lot of work, you know, trying to use a cane, especially as someone who is new to using the cane, like you're focused on making sure you're using the cane the right way, I guess. I don't know if I'm explaining that. Right. But when I'm walking with Winnie, it's, it's just like, I'm a regular person just walking down the street.
I'm not focused on. Running into things and not focus on tripping on things. I just know that WDM has me taken care of.
Christina: We hear that so often too, from other clients as well. It's when they talk about the difference [00:23:00] between the cane and the guy, Doug. But I know Leslie look, Leslie is rolling her eyes at me right now because we all know that she's a certified orientation mobility instructor.
So she loves the king.
Leslie: But, um, don't get me wrong. It makes me so happy to hear about all these wonderful relationships and knowing that you guys are all out there traveling independently with your guide dogs. That delights me more than you'll ever know, but sometimes you know, that cane gets a bad rep and it's not fair.
You know
Ellen: what though? You horrible trash in cane because it's so good for so many people, but just not
Leslie: her from what I've
Christina: learned from Leslie, you always need those skills. So
Leslie: those skills, yes. Always come number. That's right. So you are number one, Leslie. Thank you. You was talking me through it. I'm gonna be fine.
Timothy: everybody needs to dust off their cane every once in a while and keep those
Leslie: skills up. Right. And you know, the important thing here too, is that those cane skills right. Are kind of those prerequisites. You can't be successful with your guide dog. If you don't go through that [00:24:00] orientation and mobility. And so that you can be confident when you're traveling that you guys are both confident travelers.
So when you're giving commands to your guide dogs, you know, it's correct, of course they're gonna, you know, assist you if you make the wrong choice and stuff like that. But you guys are helping them just as much as they're helping you. That's why it's such a good team. You guys are both putting in a hundred percent effort.
So, I guess I'll allow it.
no, man. She
Christina: does not wanna allow it at all right now. She's like, she's dying. She's like, Please say that you love
Leslie: your cane more. I know you did. It's I mean, it's hard to compete with. I know,
Ellen: I love that. My cane allowed me to get my dog has that, you know
Leslie: what? We, we need to write that down. That's like a t-shirt.
Christina: Yes, Leslie's smiling so big right now. That's a good slot.
Leslie: I like it. I like it. Yes. They all go together. As long as everybody is traveling independently, that is the goal and [00:25:00] mission of leader dog is that people are traveling independently. Whether that be with a guide. Or with a cane. Um, and we're delighted to be part of the journey no matter what.
Christina: Yeah. And, um, I'm curious because now you're traveling with your dog. Was there things that you didn't, um, expect about getting a guy dog? Like, you know, you said the dog takes you to a lot of ice cream shops, which is great. Um, but like when you interact with people and that sort of stuff, is that different than when you're, you were walking with your cane?
Ellen: Yeah. Um, I guess I I've heard from so many people and was fully expecting to have people come up and approach me about my dog, but it it's so much more than I expected. It's honestly like being a celebrity with none of the perks of being a celebrity. just like, I can't leave my house without everyone staring at me and a thousand people coming up and asking me question.
But I'm less mad about it with the dog than I am with the cane. Because when I'm traveling with the cane and people are staring at me, I know they're staring at me, but when I'm with my dog and people [00:26:00] are staring at me, they're at that.
Leslie: That's a great way to put it. Yeah, I like that. I'll allow that Ellen I'll allow it.
wow, thank you. Leslie is on one today.
Ellen: yeah. And well, the other thing is, is a lot of people come up. Like I mentioned, ask me if I'm training her. No one was coming up and asking me if I was training that. So I guess there's that difference
Leslie: as well. We hear that all the time from clients that people don't think they're blind because they don't look blind or they don't look like they have a disability.
Yeah. And you know what, that's the case with so many other people who have different disabilities, I'm sure 98% of the people walking around this earth have something going on. It's just not always visible to the public. Um, and, and vision loss is one of those things that if you're not traveling with some sort of identifier and even like you guys are saying, even when you are people still don't believe you.
Ellen: I don't really know how else to better explain it to people when I'm like I'm walking down the street with a guide dog, that's wearing a sign that says I'm a guide dog. [00:27:00] I'm wearing sunglasses in a hat. Like, what more do you want me to do? Or a sign that says like, Hey, I'm blind. Like, like this is your fault at this point.
Yeah. Like I'm giving you all the
Leslie: information I can. Well, because heaven forbid that somebody who's blind or visually impaired be traveling independently and not be walking out their zombie, like with and needing assistance. Exactly.
Ellen: Exactly.
Leslie: That's crazy. Yeah. But hopefully one person at a time we are changing the public's eye and educating and informing people.
People who are blind or visually impaired can literally do anything. They just do it slightly different. Yeah. That
Ellen: is absolutely right. I love that. You said that. And I meant to mention that when you were asking about my job, but that's one reason why I think it's so important that if you can't to disclose your disability at work, because I think there are so many people that are.
Such highly functioning, disabled people that they don't disclose it because they feel like people are going to look at them differently. But the truth is people don't understand how capable disabled people are because we're hiding it. So like, if you can go out and be loud and proud and show your company and your [00:28:00] peers and everyone, how capable you are, that's how we're gonna educate and inform people.
Leslie: Element's a hundred percent perfect. That's accurate. I love that. That's the PSA of this, uh, this episode loud and proud. I. Thank you. Well, this has been so much fun and so informative. Ellen, thank you so much for joining us and kinda sharing your journey and your experiences. We really, really
Ellen: appreciate it.
Thank you so much for giving me this life changing dog .
Leslie: Uh, and thank you so much for listening to the taking the lead podcast. I'm Leslie Haskins with host Timothy CUO and Christina Hoeppner. We hope you enjoyed learning about Ellen's experiences and please join us next week. As we continue to dive into the world a.
And if you'd like to learn more
Christina: about applying to leader dog, you can head to leader, dog.org or call us at (888) 777-5332. And don't forget, you can reach us at taking the lead at leader, dog.org. With any questions or ideas, if you like today's podcast, make sure to hit subscribe and check us out wherever [00:29:00] podcast history.