Christina: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Taking the Lead podcast where we empower people to be unstoppable. I'm Christina Hepner with my co-host Leslie Haskins in Timothy Kunio. So what has everybody been up to
Leslie: lately?
Christina: Well,
Timothy: yesterday we, uh, just got back from my nephew's first birthday. Aw. It was absolutely awesome. They, they treated it like it was his rookie season, so it was all baseball things.
Everybody had jerseys and hats on. And my, my sister ordered all these hot dogs, big hot dogs from Sam's and everything was wrapped up. We had the pretzels, the cracker jack,
Linda: everything baseball relayed. I love that. And,
Leslie: uh,
Timothy: it was, it was cute and it was nice to see him and. And he was, he, it was a joy to be around him the other day.
It was really great.
Leslie: Hmm. That is adorable. First birthday parties are the best. Did he like really get into the cake and smash it all over you? Well,
Timothy: there, there was a smash cake and I'm, he wasn't happy about the smash cake, but Cheryl made a rum
Linda: cake and he loves the rum
Christina: cake. Oh. Starting them young. [00:01:00]
Timothy: So she's a bad aunt now.
He's addicted to rum cake. Oh gosh.
Leslie: Already at one years old. That'll be a second birthday request in his third. Oh my gosh. So funny. Oh, all
Linda: my
Timothy: nephews and nieces are saying I want a rum cake for my birthday. They all love the
Leslie: rum cake.
Christina: That's really funny. They
Leslie: don't really know what it is. Aunt Cheryl's the best dance
Linda: all of a sudden,
Leslie: and yeah, she's the best dance.
That's fantastic. That sounds like a great time. It was, it was, it was great.
Timothy: Yeah. So what'd you, what, what's going on with you
Leslie: two? Come on. Uh, well, my daughter turned four not too long ago, and so we did that. I know, right? Um, right. 'cause Timothy, I was pregnant with Alice when you were here for
Linda: o you were pregnant.
Leslie: Yes. Timothy likes. To tell the story about how, uh, to punish me. And one day he pretended like he didn't know where he was going. He just kept walking uphill a couple extra blocks so that I'm hiking it behind him. I'm all pregnant. Waddling. I'm just kidding. I mean, you did do that, but it was funny. Yes,
Timothy: I did do that.
'cause you played a trick on me [00:02:00] too. Now.
Leslie: I would never Yeah, you would. Yeah. So she turned four. Um, we did a panda themed birthday party, so, um, my husband calls her Panda Panda. Well, they call each other Panda. Panda, so, I mean, it's adorable, obviously. So we did a cute little panda themed birthday party and she's, you know, full sass and Aw, yeah.
Christina: That's so cute. I can't wait till my little niece turns one, I call her my little nugget. Yeah. Let's, oh man. But she's what? Oh my gosh. She was born in June, so now she would be like five months, four months. Yeah, five months. I'm real bad at math.
Linda: Clear. Clearly. There we are. Four months.
Leslie: Four months.
Christina: I have to count on my fingers.
I'm not even joking. You guys, I only took one math class in college because that's how much I did not like math. I went, I went to journalism school. Very not math. Oriented.
Leslie: Listen. Well, hopefully she's in better hands.
Christina: So my sister [00:03:00] was a teacher, so she's okay. Yeah. My niece is gonna be way smarter than I'm so, let's
Leslie: not worry.
Well, don't sell yourself short. There we go. I was like, what am I gonna say? I
Christina: just use a different side of my brain then. There you go. You know, we've all got our strengths there. Yeah. And math is not one of 'em, but yeah. I'm excited. 'cause you know, they now live in New York. Mm-hmm. So, mm-hmm. Um, we don't get to see 'em that often, but get lots of pictures and she, she was born so tiny that now she's probably a normal-sized baby, but I'm like, oh my gosh,
Leslie: she's so big.
So yeah, it happens. It happens so fast. I know. Yes, it does.
Linda: Goodness. Well,
Leslie: glad for all the birthdays. Yeah. All the lots, lots of fun. Keeping busy. Yes. Perfect. Well, We are excited again because we have a wonderful guest today. Today's guest is the wife of a long time leader dog client who is here to share her perspective kind of on the vision loss journey and the impact it's had on her life.
Yes,
Christina: Linda is soon to be [00:04:00] retired from Beaumont and is planning to be a yoga instructor in her retirement. She's an avid hiker, snow and water skier, and she and her husband Jeff, spend at least one week a year out in Colorado on the Black Diamonds.
Timothy: Hello, Linda. It's great to have you on the podcast. We met your husband on the last podcast, so how did you and Jeff meet?
Yeah,
Linda: love these stories. Oh boy. Well, hello there. Jump right into it.
Leslie: Yeah, get at the good stuff. Tell us
Linda: your stories. We actually met in a bar. There you go. Perfect. It was a good night.
How old were you guys when you met? I was 22 and he's a year older. Okay. Oh, okay. Yeah.
Leslie: So did you have mutual friends at the bar
Linda: or just like, oh, I had no idea where I was at at that bar. I lived up in, uh, Shelby Township and mm-hmm. And, uh, we were in Waterford where Jeff grew up in, lived all around his whole life.
He never moved [00:05:00] from there. So, uh, yeah, I didn't even know where I was at and, I was with a couple girlfriends and yeah. How
Leslie: did you, you end up there, where were you? Where did you grow up? Where are
Linda: you from? I was born in Toronto, actually. Oh. Oh wow. Sadian. But I do have my citizenship here. I did that. That was a cool thing.
Um, and grew up in Shelby Township pretty much. Yeah.
Christina: And so I have to ask, did Jeff use some pickup line or anything like that?
Leslie: Yeah. What was
Linda: his line? What was the line? Now he would say that I did that. Oh. Oh, okay. I don't say that. No, I like it. I think that's fantastic. Yes.
Leslie: So was it love at first sight or,
Linda: I don't really, I was like, I dunno, I don't really believe in that, but hey, I, awesome.
Great. Yeah. So you guys, it was good. Good.
Leslie: So you met, you fell in love, so then what? You got married obviously
Linda: at some point. Oh, we [00:06:00] dated like five years before we got married. Yeah. We didn't jump right into that. Mm-hmm. I moved out into that area. I grew up, uh, boating. We'd go every weekend to the lakes. I was big into the water.
Mm-hmm. And ended up moving out in that area. 'cause I was already dating him and, and being on the water and, uh, what was your question? Yeah, so you got married. So I guess
Leslie: with that question, I wanna know, you know, Jeff said he is a adrenaline junkie. Is that something that
Linda: runs in your blood too? Not in the same way.
No. But yeah, I'm pretty active. I like to do a lot of things. I played hockey for 20 years. Oh, wow. I played a few years ago when I got into doing yoga and then teaching yoga, which people look at that as mellow, but it's not. There's a lot of differences with yoga. Yeah. So that's a fun thing. Yeah. But yeah.
We both like to do a lot. Uh, I love the [00:07:00] hiking, the backpacking thing that we do. We haven't done it in the last couple years, uh, due to some different things, but mm-hmm. Um, I just love that having the backpack on your back is just, That's what you have. That's how you're living. Yeah. That's it. And you don't, you're sort of living in the moment.
Yeah. One at a time and, uh, like that, leaving everything else behind. Yeah. Yeah. That is
Leslie: nice. Kinda facing the challenges as they come, right? Yeah.
Christina: Yeah. So, you know, you guys got married, kinda lived a life or when did you guys first find out that, um, Jeff had vision
Linda: loss? I think we were dating a couple years when I.
He went for that driver's test that was just stunning to everyone. I don't know if he called me and told me what happened, and I think it was hard to comprehend or understand or, yeah. Even know where that was leading to, you know? Mm-hmm. Or even believe it because Did you notice
Leslie: any like thing that you thought, oh, that's weird.
He can't see that? No. Or Right, because [00:08:00] it was just existing
Linda: everyday normal life. Yeah. It just adapts to everything and it was a slow progress and No, it's shocking. Mm-hmm. Like, what are you talking about? You know, we were both so active. He was working as a paramedic, right?
Leslie: Yeah. He can't possibly be. Yeah.
Yeah. Did
Christina: you know anything about, um, blindness or vision loss before this happened?
Linda: No. Stevie Wonder. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Which is, and you know, back then things, well, there wasn't the internet or anything that Yeah. And you didn't hear about anything like that. And I didn't really know anyone.
I had worked in a nursing home with older people, and I don't remember there being, or even, or thinking about. Yeah. Vision loss or anything like that with them? No. My grandpa had lost one of his eyes. He had a glass eye. Mm-hmm. From a stroke, but he still. Functioning. He was in his eighties and yeah, we just, as a kid, that was sort [00:09:00] of a cool thing.
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Sorry grandpa. That a cool trick. Yeah. Well I get it. Yeah. So
Timothy: what were your feelings about this? Were you a little scared that you were getting involved with somebody that's their vision's starting to fall and decline? Uh, 'cause my wife, when I told her we were dating mm-hmm. And basically we grew into it together.
Linda: Mm-hmm. It was, uh, I think the more things changed and as we progressed in our relationship, we had to think of everything more seriously. And I did, and Jeff, I did think about that. And uh, he didn't really like that. I thought about that. He thought I was being superficial, sort of. But it is a part of your life.
You have to think about that stuff. Uh, you're, uh, having children or whatever, you know, how's that gonna change things? And maybe not everybody would think about that, but I sort of did not that it. Changed the direction that we went in. Mm-hmm. But something I sort of talked to some other people about and then moved on.
Leslie: [00:10:00] You kinda have to, right. It's your life and you have to be realistic with yourself and make sure you fully understand kind of what's going on and how you can be supportive and how that's gonna impact you. You know? Right. Your mentality and your, your life really moving forward. Oh yeah. So you guys, obviously nothing slowed you down.
You love can't stop you two. You got married and so then, and you did have children, right? You do you have
Linda: a We have one. One child? Yeah, one son. They live a mile from us. Oh, fantastic. My son, daughter-in-law and two grandchildren. Aw, nice. Love being a grandma. I have new playmates 'cause. I like to play. My son doesn't play with me anymore, so I have two grandchildren to do that with.
So
Leslie: what was the impact, like, uh, then raising your son? So your husband's losing his vision. He's no longer maybe working or driving at this point. What was that like
Linda: for you to be the only person, the main earner? Yeah. That was, um, hard. It was, uh, [00:11:00] Transition for both of us. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I had to look at things in a different way, like it was a slow progression.
So that sort of helped with that. Yeah. Alec was, I think at first grade when Jeff stopped working. Mm-hmm. So we didn't have to do the childcare thing as much. Mm-hmm. Though he had some other things he was doing and he was still driving. I don't taking care or. Being the one always driving. I remember when he was always driving, which he drove way too long, and he's, as you guess, listening to him, he's a very strong personality.
So it was hard to get him outta that driver's seat. Yeah. Uh uh That was very nerve wracking. Yeah. To be driving like that, but then to become the sole driver. That's a lot. I know a lot of women that don't like to do that. Yeah. And that's what I have to do. You know, I go on long trips or whatever, it's just me.
So yeah,
Leslie: absolutely. I've talked about my grandpa having macular degeneration, and that was one of the biggest things that [00:12:00] my grandma struggled with, is she felt like a taxi driver. And I know even just as a mom, you can feel like that, right? Yeah. When you're like drawing the, they have to get to all their practices and school on time and things like that, so that can be a lot to carry.
Yeah. Um, how is it now just curious with like Uber and there's so many different options, has that helped a
Linda: lot? Well, Jeff doesn't use Uber, so people from Leader Dog pick him up and take him to places, so that's awesome. Uh, no, typically I do all the. Driving and everything. Yeah. Um, I do all the grocery shopping now, which he used for a long time.
When he quit working and was still driving, he did the grocery shopping, which was cool. But then, you know. Mm-hmm. Yeah. How all that stuff falls.
Christina: Yeah. So what was it like for you, you know, before he found Leader Dog, after he retired, before he found Leader Dog, you know, that place where he had mentioned in the previous podcast where, you know, he had hit his point, the low point.
What was that like for you being the support
Linda: system? It was hard to watch this person [00:13:00] that, uh, was very strong and, um, had an ego, which we all do, but Yeah. And to, uh, become more into himself, uh, close in and not have confidence and all that hiding of his Yeah. Blindness. Like we'd go out to a restaurant and he'd point at the menu that, you know, to the.
The server telling him what he was gonna have. And it's like, what are you doing? You can't even see the menu, you know? Yeah. Or, uh, spanking it. Yeah. Uh, he didn't trust me to walk across the street with him and he would hunker down and everything about that was hard to watch this person do that and close in more and more in the depression, which I understand.
That journey happens to a lot of people as they lose their vision. It's the same story a little different way, but yeah, to watch him do that and the fear of going off to [00:14:00] work and what he was gonna be like, or you know, what, what he was doing are just a little scary. I,
Leslie: you know, your story's very relatable and we've heard Cheryl Timothy's wife talk about very similar experiences, right?
Like, People when they're losing their vision, their whole life seems like they're crumbling. And depression is a very real experience that many people, you know, have shared with us. Yeah, and it's, it's challenging, right? 'cause as much as you're talking about, you know, now you're the sole breadwinner, you're the, you're the driver, you're all of that.
He, they're also experiencing that, right? Yeah. So it's gotta be really challenging for both of you. 'cause you're. You're both experiencing so much together and then watching each other or knowing that each other's going through that I am imagining is incredibly challenging.
Linda: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then, you know, him being home, he wanted to prove that he was somebody and was doing things.
So he took over a lot of things that I used to do too. Yeah. At home, which in a way was good, but in another way, I sort of felt like I was losing. [00:15:00] Me? Yeah, absolutely. Using myself. 'cause that's all that I was, was this blind person's wife. And it's funny, you know, every once in a while I've had people come up and ask me, how are you?
You know, how are you doing? But that's very rare that people would do that. And I wouldn't even think about that for myself either. But it's something that you should. Do you know, you need to take care of you too and be yourself and do your things and, and getting into hockey when I did was one thing that I, um, found something that I loved and something that I could do for me and, uh, be with other women and that was a huge help to me doing that.
Leslie: Yeah, I think that's so interesting. You just bring up such a. An important point. It's like in the, you know when you get on the airline and they say you have to put your oxygen mask on first before you can put on your kids or whoever's next to you. And that's just it. We also at Leader, recently went through a, a mental health kind of first Aider training.
Yeah. [00:16:00] Training. And that was one of the key takeaways is like, you have to take care of yourself first. Yeah. You can't help anybody else until you are making sure that you are in a safe and healthy space. And I think that's just a really important thing for everybody to know. And obviously listening. If your spouse or family member or somebody is going through this, Your mental health and your physical health are just as important.
Oh. Mm-hmm. And it's, it's really important to find activities or somebody to talk to. And it sounds like hockey was that for you? Yeah. It took
Linda: me a while to get there and I probably needed even more than that. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. And finding yoga was a huge help to me, you know? Yeah. Doing that. 'cause yoga is so much more than just the movement part.
Yeah. It's not delving in and, uh, finding yourself or whatever.
Timothy: So Linda, Jeff goes off and he finds leader dog. He did the o and m, and he got a guide dog. So how has that impacted your life knowing that he's got those independent skills that he can travel anywhere without assistance? Because it's, it's affected your life too.
It's probably helped, helped [00:17:00] your life out a little less
Linda: responsibility. It helped. Uh, when, initially, when it first happened, it was great for both me and our son. Mm-hmm. To know that he had this companion, this per this person. Yeah. Always feels like it. Right. Who became, uh, sometimes more important to him than me.
It's like, wait a minute. But, uh, I think we both felt a comfort with that and, uh, For me, it gave me back my independence, which I've talked to, I've met some people, uh, through work. I work in the hospital. Um, some patients that came in that were either losing their sight or their family member was and got to talk to them about that.
Like, you know, you need this too. Mm-hmm. And, uh, you need your independence back and getting that dog for this person helps you to be able to move on, like, Like even being at like when we go out to the ho, a hotel or whatever, we're staying at a hotel, [00:18:00] I can go off and do something and know that he can get back to the room with the dogs.
The dog's gonna find the way, or the dog's gonna find me somewhere and I don't have to worry. I. And watch over everything he's doing when we're out at the gym or whatever we're doing.
Leslie: That's a huge point. We talk about, you know, the impact that Leader Dog has. It's not just on an individual's life, of course it is.
Mm-hmm. Right? Like obviously Gracie and now Dov have changed Jeff's life, but it's changed your life too. And we talk about the community and the family network that, you know, it is a lot to have somebody in your household who has a disability. It can be challenging. Mm-hmm. It can feel like extra work sometimes.
And so navigating that together, but knowing now that he has someone or something right, to help him and to be there with him and not help him even because it's such a team. But like companionship, even companionship, you know, take a little bit off so that they have something else or someone else to rely on too.
Mm-hmm.
Linda: Yeah. And he has her to rely on it, and [00:19:00] then she has him to rely on, so it's him doing something for her too, and giving back, and then his. Giving back to Leader Dog is a huge thing. It's great for him to have that and, and that he can give back to them and that I can too. We've both been somewhat involved with Leader Dog and they've done so much for me, so I get to talk about that.
Also, I. You've
Leslie: been wonderful at sharing your experience along the way, and we certainly appreciate that. Jeff, we know does a lot of speaking engagements for us, but you have absolutely stepped in and been able to share your perspective, which is so unique and so interesting and so relatable to I think, so many people.
Yeah. Not just people who's, you know, happen to be married to somebody who's blind or visually impaired. So many people can relate to your Yes, exactly. Your story and your experience, so thank you for always for doing that for us as well.
Christina: Yeah. So what advice, I guess, would you give someone else who, a spouse or a family member who may be going through vision loss with a family member [00:20:00] of theirs?
Linda: Well, I wish we would've known about Leader Dog sooner, or that I would've, uh, maybe I never checked into any of that stuff. I didn't know anything about it, but I, yeah, I didn't look into that and. Him being such a strong personality and he was taking care of his own thing. And, but I wish I would've done more of that.
Maybe also taking care of things for myself. And it's hard Been more aware. Yeah, it's hard 'cause it, things are different now than it was before, so, yeah.
Leslie: Did you know when Jeff made that call to Leader Dog, was that something you guys had discussed or talked about
Linda: ahead of time? I was trying to remember when that happened.
I, he told me about, uh, some of the videos that he watched. I'm not sure how he fell into those videos. I don't know that we knew anything about Leader Dog before that. So maybe he was just looking things up and, and how surprised he was that the stories were so similar. Mm-hmm.
Leslie: So what was that [00:21:00] like for you dropping him off at Leader Dog?
I think that's something that family members the first time, yeah, it's. It gotta be
Linda: scary. It was, it was, uh, not knowing, uh, not totally comprehending what was going on. I mean, there were other people saying, well, why don't you just get a dog and train it yourself? Right.
Leslie: People have no idea.
Linda: Oh my gosh, wouldn't that be so nice?
And, and then that's how it works. Yeah. And then that he was gonna be there for a whole month. Yeah. You know, it was weird and, uh, that we didn't get to see each other. I think I, um, went up there once and. Waved at the door or something and got to meet, uh, Gracie, but it was right around her mealtime and she had no interest in me whatsoever.
And you're like, oh no, he's gonna break
Leslie: this dog home. She's gonna hate me. I'm the other woman now.
Linda: She was another blonde. Yeah. Oh no.
Leslie: What
Timothy: was that like when he brought Gracie home the
Linda: first time? It was exciting, but it, it was an unknown. Like we, [00:22:00] he didn't really want me to talk to her or look at her and all that kinda stuff, and, uh, she was very much connected to him.
She and I had some kind of a relationship, but she was very connected to him where Dove is a different dog. Mm-hmm. She has a different personality and she has more relationship with everyone else and each of those dogs are different. But yeah, it was exciting when when they came home, it was exciting to see the changes, see, watch the changes in him and watch him progress with that.
And it took a quite a while. I mean, he was afraid to go out to the restaurants or that people were gonna, you know, something was gonna happen to the dog, or he was very fearful of that, and that took a while to get over some of that, or for them to grow together. Yeah. I'm
Leslie: curious what your thoughts were, your perspective was.
So once Jeff started using a cane and or a guide dog, right, that was kind of sharing to the world like, Hey, I'm blind, I'm visually impaired. What was that like on your side?
Linda: Well, Jeff had those [00:23:00] glasses before that, that had the telescope lens. Mm-hmm. That showed that you had something wrong with you. Yeah.
And I was always bugging him to put them on because he, he didn't wanna share with people that he had an issue. I was ready for that. Yeah. Yeah. I thought the cane was a great thing. 'cause then people would know that he was blind so that he could talk to people where, He'd stand out in the, um, grass and wave thinking somebody was walking by and uh, you know, maybe he, I don't know what he was waving at, but, you know, things like that where with the cane it told people that he was, but then with the cane also, people stay cleared away.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. And Jeff tells a story that, um, I shared with him as we were walking. We are, we live close to Rochester, so we were in Rochester going out to eat and we're walking down. He has a cane and this family. Just got [00:24:00] climbed right into the wall, like as we went by and I said, you should see this. It's like, uh, your Moses coming through.
Yeah. It's started to see Yeah. With a dog. That doesn't happen. We, um, it's really cool. We go out to eat and we always meet someone. Mm-hmm. We meet someone new. 'cause people wanna come up and talk about the dog first, and then they start talking to you and. We hear
Leslie: that all the time, and that is one thing I don't know how to change while just like so many things.
Yes. Yeah. Right. It's one mobility device versus the other. Yeah. They're, you know, they're doing the same thing basically, but one is so welcoming and one for whatever reason is so off
Linda: putting. Yeah. And it was really nice at first when he got it and he was happy with it, but then he started closing himself in again.
Timothy: Yeah. That, that was one of my biggest, when I came home with the cane, it just seemed like everybody just scattered and I didn't like that feeling and. And it just felt like they didn't wanna be a part of me. Yeah. And that that can affect with your
Linda: psyche a little bit. And it did. Oh yeah. Well, for both of us it did.
And that's where the dog is so nice though. [00:25:00] Sometimes people still do things like they'll come up and to talk to us and they talk to me. Mm-hmm. Instead of talking to Jeff and he's standing right there and they're asking me questions and I had to back off and say, well, you'll have to ask him. They treat him like he's.
More than just blind per that, like, yeah. That he's not a human being, I guess. Mm-hmm. And I, I have to work at not, um, showing my anger. Yeah. But you know, because people just don't know. Yeah, I know. It's so frustrating. You're really sort of working for a leader dog when you're out there with your dog. So I can't be, um, Showing my emotions.
Yeah. My negative emotions towards somebody when we're trying to, but I, I can see how this is a great thing. He gets upset with me sometimes.
Leslie: Well, and for those listening, Jeff is totally in the room, sitting right next to Linda and laughing along with all these things and nodding his head profusely. So throughout this whole episode, just so you know, he's here and agreeing and loving it.
Yeah,
Christina: but I mean, when that happens all the [00:26:00] time, it has to take a toll
Linda: because, You know? Yeah. I'm being a protective one in a way. Yeah. But then he deals with it so much better.
Leslie: Yeah. And sometimes that's, that's just like not fair. Like you shouldn't have to feel like you're, you know, a walking advertisement or that you always have to explain to people or, you know, answer everybody's questions and all of that.
I'm sure that it can be absolutely just exhausting. Yeah. All the time, you know?
Linda: But once, I guess some, a lot of times or sometimes once you get through that question thing, then you get to have a conversation with someone and it makes it fun and, uh, maybe meet some people that you might wanna hang out with sometime.
Yeah, right. And it is, it's an
Leslie: opportunity to educate and advocate every time people walk away after a conversation. But I'm sure with both of you feeling like, oh, I learned something, or, yeah, he's just a normal guy. Yeah. Which is doing the work, right? Mm-hmm. That's, that's advocating, so you both do a wonderful job at that.
We certainly appreciate you guys always be so willing to share [00:27:00] your story and your experience.
Linda: Thanks. Well,
Leslie: again, thank you for coming and, and to your husband, Jeff. We really appreciate everything you guys have done for Leader Dog and continue to do. I'm glad that Leader Dog has had a positive impact on your life.
Linda: Oh, thank you. It has. We're grateful to a leader dog.
Leslie: Well, and thank you to our listeners for listening to the Taking the Lead podcast. I'm Leslie Hoskins with host Timothy Kyo and Christina Hepner. We hope you enjoyed hearing from Linda and all of her wonderful experiences. Please join us again next time as we continue to dive into the world of blindness.
And if you'd like to learn
Christina: more about applying to our free services or donate to Leader Dog, you can head to leader dog.org or call us at (888) 777-5332. And don't forget, you can reach us at taking the lead@leaderdog.org with any questions or ideas. If you like today's podcast, make sure to hit subscribe and check us out wherever Podcast Stream.[00:28:00]