Christina: [00:00:00] welcome to the taking the lead podcast, where we empower people to be unstoppable. I'm Christina Hapner with my cohost, Leslie Haskins and Timothy Cuneo. So Leslie and I, this week, we had a really cool opportunity to go to the Detroit airport and talk to people at Delta. It was such a cool experience.
Lastly, wouldn't you say
Leslie: it was well, first of all right, we have to talk about how weird it was to go to the airport and through security and then not get on a plane. I
Christina: know. Well, you know, we stay in the airport all day, but
Leslie: it's fine. So we went through security and we spent the whole day with Delta. So Delta reached out because they want to learn more about our dogs.
They want to learn more about our clients. They want to learn more about blindness in general. And what they can do to help accommodate. And so it was really cool to hear from them because [00:01:00] they want to help people with disabilities and that's all disabilities. But we were there to educate of course, about blindness and guide dogs specifically.
Um, but they were so passionate. They asked questions. So many people showed up. It was kind of like a lunch and learn situation. And the attendance was amazing. I was blown away by that
Christina: because when you do those things, you never know who's going to attend these rooms where. For both sessions. And they were actually engaged in asking questions because sometimes you go and do a presentation somewhere and you know, it's a few people and they just stare at you after, but they were asking questions.
They were coming up after we had leader dog ambassador dogs, which are basically PR dogs that we can take to events and people can pet them and interact with them, but they can also act as a guide dog. And it was just so cool to see. And Timothy, we actually brought up a year, travel a bit. We talked about how you're preparing for your trip.
Cause you've talked about it on the podcast before.
Timothy: It's nice that they're doing it because [00:02:00] you know, being visually impaired is stressful, really to take, just to go on your own with a dog. I mean his stress for normal people. And to know that an airline out there right now is trying to learn that after all this DLT has changed all the rules for flying and stuff, and we have to do the paperwork before we go.
And it's great that Delta is really doing it. I give them a lot of credit for doing that.
Leslie: Yeah, it was exciting. You know, we talked about blindness in general, we talked about the cane and orientation mobility skills. We talked about our guide dogs, things to look for, what to expect from as far as behavior from our guide dogs, um, what to expect from our clients and how, you know, vision is different in how you assist one person might not be how you assist the other person and to ask what the best accommodations might be.
So it was, again, overall, just an incredible experience. They were overly accommodating for us as well. Um, but we did talk about Timothy. They were asking, you know, kind of, uh, park schedules. And of course they have the relief areas in the, the terminals, [00:03:00] um, which aren't always the easiest to use. And some dogs don't use them, which we found out our three Canon ambassadors did not use them.
So we had to really get creative and find a way to get outside, which was difficult. And so it gave us a really good perspective of what our clients. But it helped a Delta even more so understand what our clients go through and the concerns. And so one of the examples Timothy that we used from you was how you, you know, even months away from your trip, You're already planning.
Okay. This is what time my flight is. This is what time I have to get the airport, which means I can park my dog at this time. I can feed them. I can water them, all of these different things. And we were saying, now, imagine there's a delay now I'm at the airport for even longer. And so it really just gave perspective.
You could see everybody like, oh my gosh. Yeah, that's a lot to take in. Yeah.
Christina: And the one thing that they kept asking. Do they have accidents is that normal? And Leslie brought up, you know, if there's a delay in that dog now has not been able to park or relieve itself, park is what [00:04:00] we use at leader dog. Um, for, you know, Eight nine hours.
It might happen. It's it's still a dog at the end of the day, but, um, I mean, we could talk about this for hours, so I think we just need to get into what we're actually talking about on this podcast
Leslie: today. Uh, yes. Yes. So just real quick, thank you to Delta for the support, for wanting to learn more. We're super excited to be working with them.
Today though our guest is very exciting. She has attended all three liter dog programs and has been truly an amazing ambassador in resource for leader dog. She has so many accomplishments and stories, but is here today, specifically to talk about her experience with the whole guide dog process,
Chrstina: I actually obtained a bachelor's in organizational communications from north central.
Well at north central Ashley competed as the first NCAA tri athlete with a disability that required sports specific accommodations. And she also advocated for the [00:05:00] inclusion of people with disabilities in collegiate sports and the fitness and recreation industries. She has given a TEDx talk and continues to advocate for the inclusion and integration of people with disabilities in the fitness world.
Timothy: Ashley, it's great to finally meet you. And can you tell us a little bathroom?
Ashley: Absolutely first. Thank you so much for having me on the pod. I'm so excited to be here. Um, I, uh, I live in Chicago. I am, uh, the oldest of triplets. I like to lead with the oldest of triplets because it is a massive point of pride for me.
Um, um, but, uh, yeah, I'm a triathlete and an endurance runner. Um, I've been blind, uh, I have retinopathy of prematurity. Um, and as Leslie mentioned, I've been through all of leader, dogs, programming.
Leslie: That is amazing. I love that you added your, the oldest triplet. My husband is a twin and I do that is, it's like a point of pride to be the first one out, I guess [00:06:00]
Ashley: I always ask.
So I've just started to like lead with it, beat them to the punch. I think that's
Leslie: great. You
Ashley: can say
Timothy: she won
Ashley: her first race. Yeah. There you
Christina: started that young.
Leslie: We knew that you were going to be competitive, I guess that is hilarious. Well, thank you for being with us today. We're so excited. We would just want to talk about your experience of course, with vision loss and with leader dogs specifically.
Um, but do you mind just telling us how your vision loss has impacted you throughout your.
Ashley: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so retinopathy of prematurity, I was diagnosed with it, um, at birth, uh, because we were triplets, we were born super premature about 26 and a half weeks and lived a very active life. My sisters both have the same eye condition.
We experienced substantially different degrees of vision loss, mine being the most severe, but how to really active life had parents [00:07:00] that really encouraged me to try as many things as I wanted to. Um, I had a very short-lived softball career, uh, learned that ball sports probably aren't for me. Um, and thankfully found running, um, in high school, um, started running half marathons, um, ran my first marathon in college.
Um, all with sighted guides, lost a bet how to do a triathlon, um, when how to do that as a blind person, um, and really have just used a sport and fitness to kind of help navigate some of the day-to-day challenges that come with. Not seeing.
Christina: And so you and your triplets, you said all have the same diagnosis.
What was that like growing up with them and going through this, I know you said you have different variations. Um, were you guys able to kind of lean on each other in that sort of things growing up?
Ashley: Yeah, it's, it's interesting because it was never really like a huge. Topic in the family, it just kind of was what it [00:08:00] was.
And I think having two other siblings that had not identical, but similar experiences kind of lended itself to just being like a normal part of. Life growing up and life now as an adult. Um, but yeah, especially now kind of, as we're older and we've all kind of gone off and we're doing different things.
Um, it's definitely nice to be able to kind of like call them and like run things by each other and troubleshoot and brains. It's
Leslie: interesting. The connection that like twins and triplets have, like, I think about my husband and sometimes, or randomly, we had situations where they buy like the same exact shirt, but like at different times, and they have no idea and they'll show up to an event and be wearing it.
Does that kind of stuff happen to you? I know this is completely off topic. I just find it interesting. Totally.
Ashley: Um, growing up I would get so annoyed because, um, we all had our own rooms. We like added an addition to. Um, and so we'd come out to like go to school and Kaylee be like, I just need you to [00:09:00] know that we're wearing the same shirt.
And I'm like, one of us has to go change. It's not going to be me. So
Christina: you're like, I'm the oldest.
Ashley: Like we can't, we can't do this.
Leslie: So at what age
Timothy: did you start using the cane and did your siblings start at the same time you started using it?
Ashley: Great question. So, um, I was introduced to the cane, um, in kindergarten.
So at age five, and at that point in my journey with vision loss, it was a support to my existing functioning. So I was not a full-time cane user at the time. It was really important that I learned those, um, ONM skills from a young age. Um, just not knowing the projection. Um, kind of where my vision would land.
Um, my siblings, uh, weren't uh, introduced to, um, the cane at all. Um, one of my sisters actually, uh, drive, she has a driver's license, uh, like very minimal, uh, visual impairment. Um, [00:10:00] And the other one, uh, was introduced to one, um, prior to going to college just as, um, kind of in like a support capacity, should she need it for identification or should she find herself in a situation like at night where she felt she'd be more comfortable with it?
I didn't start using a cane full time, um, until my senior year of high school, actually, as a result of, um, coming to leader, dog for ONM, uh, Leslie spent an entire. Convincing me that, um, the cane was an extension of my body and something that should go everywhere. I went, um, I had something that I told myself every day of senior year, because I knew I had gone to the ONM program at leader dog with the goal.
And I had told Leslie day one, I was like, I want to be able to go away to college. I want to be independent. And using the cane is the only way that that's going to be able to happen safely. And, um, so. That was like the deal we made at the end of O and M. And I used it every day of senior year and have now traveled all over.
Leslie: That is [00:11:00] really cool. Ashley I'm over here a little bit tearing up. Uh that's so that's so cool to hear. Um, and that was a very impactful for week for me as well. Uh, just to give a little backstory I'm Ashley and I, uh, we go way back. So Ashley was, um, Counselor at camp my first year at liter dog as an intern.
Um, so we met several, several years ago. I think that's almost nine years ago at this point, which is insane. Um, and so I met Ashley and I've kind of followed her story and her journey, and she's just incredible and doing all sorts of amazing things. And then I got to work with her for ONM, which we had so much fun and we've had Shannon on the podcast previously.
Um, and she was obviously there with you. You know, the horror buffs along with the other. Oh. And I'm, Internet's such a great week and just love Shannon. Right? I mean, you guys are both just wonderful and I've absolutely loved following both of you. Cause you're doing so many things, but so besides ONM, cause I know we're here to talk about your guide [00:12:00] dog experience.
We can talk about all the other stuff and I think we might at another time get into it. Uh, do you mind sharing your journey with the whole guide dog experience that leader, dog kind of what happened? How, when.
Ashley: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, my first two years of college, I stayed close to home. I lived at home and, um, commuted with my sisters.
Uh, we went to the same, like community college. I then transferred, um, to a school right outside of Chicago. Um, spent my junior year of college on campus, learning how to navigate it. And, um, Kind of navigating, living alone in a way from home for the first time realizing that, um, I think I wanted a different, um, travel support than what my cane offered me and, um, kind of starting to explore.
A guide dog travel and what that could look like. And, um, leader dog had already done so much for me. It was a natural next step [00:13:00] to kind of connect with you all again and inquire about, um, a guide dog and coming in for class. Um, so that happened the summer between my junior and senior year of college, I came in for a class.
I was. Super excited, super anxious. Um, I'm sure clients tell you all the time, like what their class first class experience is like, um, and was matched with a dog. Um, So excited, uh, loved her. She was great. Um, we started off really strong in class. Um, we're having a really good experiences. Um, really just kind of fully embracing the process.
Um, as class continued, um, we started to kind of encounter some issues. Uh, working together, she was having some health issues that were impacting her work. We weren't really sure what was going on. We tried a lot of different things, trouble. Um, spent a lot of time troubleshooting, had a ton of [00:14:00] meetings, um, and ultimately decided that it wasn't a great match, um, that we.
Kind of the right pace for each other. I'm a very fast Walker. Um
um, and this dog, uh, did better with someone that, um, had a slightly more casual walking pace. Um, um, and so ultimately I left class early without a dog. Um, and that was not really something that I had anticipated, you know? Her that that could be a possibility. And obviously as it was looking more and more like my reality, my , um, you know, met with me and we talked about it and what it would mean and all of that.
Um, and yeah, so. I had gone to class expecting to come home, uh, with a dog and, uh, left early without one, um, which was challenging, uh, in its own. Right. But I had been pretty private [00:15:00] about, um, the decision in the process up until that point. And so it wasn't like I had a ton of people to kind of inform or update on the matter.
Um, I just, I went back to my parents and a house for the rest of the summer and. Really just kind of jumped back into. Summer, I hadn't planned a ton because of, um, the guide dog class and wanting to give, you know, plenty of time for acclamation. Um, but ended up just filling my summer with like races and, um, some trips and stuff to kind of make the most out of, um, what ended up being a bit of an unideal situation.
And so what
Christina: was that like going home? Did you ever think, like maybe I want to go back and get another guy dog at all during that time period?
Ashley: Yeah. So the intention was, um, to go back when I w when we knew that it wasn't going to work, um, and we were at the point in class where we really didn't have time to re like introduce a new dog.
Um, I, I [00:16:00] basically was like, well, I have like a holiday break in December. Um, my school was on trimesters instead of semesters. So I was off basically from Thanksgiving to new year's and I was like, If like an opportunity presents itself, like I could potentially come in for like the last class of the year.
Um, and so that was kind of the line of thinking, um, th did they didn't have a match for me then? Um, so we kind of looked ahead to the next summer and it was like, it's a little bit less ideal. It's like the summer after senior year, like, I don't know necessarily what my future looks like, but like I really, really enjoyed guide dog travel and I knew that it was.
A form of travel that I wanted to give another shot and pursue. And so the following summer, about a year, um, 13 months to the date, um, I found myself back in class, um, to try again, I was matched with another great dog, um, a super fast dog. Um, We had a really, really good class experience. [00:17:00] Um, we kind of hit all the marks.
I really got to experience class. I kind of knew what I was getting into. So it was a bit less stressful this time around there were still parts of me that were like, we have to remember that there's a chance that this might not work out. Like, you know, we need to embrace the process, but we also need to be realistic.
And, um, I got to go home with that dog. Um, we. Uh, I started, um, Kind of our transition back. That part was all super new to me. So I was really excited. I was, you know, sharing the news with my friends and my family, because they were going to see me with a dog instead of a cane. And it was great. Um, we got home, uh, transitioning home is challenging for every team.
Um, I don't think there's enough, like preparation in the world that you can do. You just don't know until you're living. Um, and we had a really difficult transition, um, what we started off really [00:18:00] strong first couple of weeks, um, and slowly the kind of the effectiveness of us as a team kind of started to deteriorate.
Um, my dog was experiencing some challenges with, um, relief and with distractability and I was doing my best to navigate. I was, you know, talking with, um, is pretty regularly trying to make, make things work and, um, had an instructor come out and work with us, um, for about a week. And, um, It just, wasn't getting better.
I found myself kind of avoiding a lot of the parts of my life that I loved because of the challenges that I was having with travel. And, um, we were getting to the point where like, it wasn't realistic to have to work the dog inside because of relief issues. And I was just very [00:19:00] limited in what I could do and when I could do it because of it and ultimately.
I made the decision that it wasn't a great match or it wasn't a great time. Um, you know, I was living a life that I didn't want to live. I felt less independent than I did prior. And ultimately, uh, it was decided that like, we just weren't a good match. Um, the pub ended up getting career changed, um, when, um, he went back to liter dog.
Um, but. Yeah. So I've gone through two classes now. Um, very different experiences in each, but I think really important experiences to talk about.
Leslie: I want to thank you. First of all, for sharing all this, I know it's incredibly emotional experiences that you went through. You're being extremely vulnerable with us.
Um, and, and going through that is unfortunate and. What you just said, right? Like this does need to be talked about because these experiences do happen. A lot of times we're putting rainbows and, [00:20:00] you know, making this out, like it's the easiest process and it always works, but it doesn't, there are times when the matches wrong or there are problems when you get home.
You're talking about that transition with that dog and starting to park and having trouble, um, with relieving itself in inappropriate areas. And then you not being as independent. That's the last thing that we want at leader dog is for you to feel like you can't go home. I want to just praise you for recognizing like, Hey, this isn't actually benefiting my life and making that tough decision to call and say, you know what?
We've tried it. It's not working out. Like, I think that is absolutely incredible.
Ashley: Yeah. It was such a difficult decision to make to, oh my gosh.
Timothy: I imagine. So how was the transition? I mean, you had your cane skills and then you tried to dog. And it didn't work out. And now you finally figured out, Hey, I'm just going to have to use my cane.
What is that process like in your mind and your mental, you know? Cause that would affect me. Just felt like, I mean, it would make me feel bad. So how was that for
Ashley: you? [00:21:00] Um, so the first go around, it was, um, challenging just because I was so excited. And just didn't had not really prepared myself at all for the possibility of not coming home with a dog.
Um, the second time around, by the time everything had been set in done, and we'd done all of the retraining and re-evaluating and meetings and calls and progress updates, um, that we had done to kind of assess, um, the dog's kind of, uh, fitness and aptitude for work. I was just ready to. Get back to traveling, get back to racing, like get back to like feeling confident and independent in my abilities that I, I welcomed, um, the consistency that comes from having an, using a white cane.
Um, it, it was a confidence builder for me. Um, in the sense that like for about six months, I had kind of put my life on hold. [00:22:00] Um, and. Kind of once they, once later dog came and picked up the second dog, um, it was the first time I kind of felt like I didn't have to do that anymore. And like I remember, uh, they came and picked him up on a Thursday and I, um, had purposefully planned to head up to Chicago.
Um, The following weekend, um, just to get some space from my family who were obviously sad that the dog had left, cause he'd been living with me and my parents and my siblings. Um, but also to kind of put myself in a situation where I like got to travel independently and got to. Re approach and refined the independence that I felt I had been lacking.
And,
Christina: you know, you went through this not once, but twice. What advice would you give someone else who might be feeling the same way or they're considering returning their guide dog? Because not everyone can make such a big decision like
Ashley: you did. I think one like lean on [00:23:00] people, whether it's family, whether it's folks at leader, dog, whether it's from.
Uh, or whatever, a guide dog school you might, you know, have the dog from, um, like leaning on people that are able to and capable of kind of supporting you in that process is really important. But I also think, um, and a friend of mine kind of reminded me of this as I was, you know, doing the same, reaching out to friends of mine that used, uh, were guide dog users and had gone through class and similar experiences or completely different experiences is.
Is having this dog helping you live a more independent life or getting you closer to living the life that you kind of envisioned this process, bringing you. And if the answer is, I don't know, or no, then it's really important to reassess what's happening because like, for as much. We want it to work, sometimes it just doesn't.
And I remember when I kind of made a public announcement about this, cause I had been very public [00:24:00] with the dog at this point, had him long enough that, um, it said sometimes things don't work out and there's nothing that we can do to make it better. And the fact that like, people don't feel good about it or that you don't feel good about.
Is okay. Like that's a very natural thing to feel and I'm allowed to be disappointed in myself. I'm allowed to be disappointed in the dog. I'm allowed to be disappointed in the process. Like we get to feel those things and work through them.
Leslie: Absolutely. You're allowed to have all those feelings and it's appropriate to have all those feelings.
Um, I just want to say, I thought this was so interesting, Ashley, because you know, when you and I re Julian talked about you coming on the podcast, my. Perspective of what had happened was that you just decided you didn't want a guide dog because I've always seen you as such an independent cane traveler.
I thought, oh, she just decided the dog's going to slow her down. It's not, you know, it's just a lifestyle choice. So I'm so appreciative of you kind of one setting my record straight, but two just sharing this story because I think [00:25:00] more people are impacted or more people experiences than we, we really talk about.
But I also want to. Or ask you a couple things. One, what does this mean for the future? Is it something that you're considering, you know, tackling or trying again? Um, and then I, you know what, I forgot my second question. So let's start with that one.
Ashley: it'll come to you. Um, Um, so guide dog travel is still something of interest to me. Um, I am not currently in a position to, uh, make the commitments needed to go through training again. Um, I am finally kind of to the point where like, I'm emotionally. Um, for the opportunity, it wasn't really until recently, um, that I was like, oh yeah, like, I, I could, I could do this again.
I would be open to this again, but like currently I live in like less than 300 square feet in downtown Chicago. Like that's not very conducive to like a large dog. I [00:26:00] have a ton going on in my life. I, I can't like. Put things like slow things down or kind of put a few things on hold right now to like give the time needed to train and like acclimate a dog to my environment.
Like it's just not quite the right, um, time for me not to say that in a year or five years or 10 years or 20 years, that that won't change. Like I'm always open to it. Um, but as it stands currently, like I'm really content with how I travel and using, um, the white case. I
Christina: absolutely love that mindset you have on this.
I mean, that is such a, such a great thing to have, and I think other people can relate to that as well, because it can be tough. You said it took you till recently to get there and I can only imagine how busy you are because you're a triathlete.
Leslie: I just want to ask you in your professional career, we're going to have to dive into another episode because you're doing such incredible things there [00:27:00] as well.
Chrstina: Yes. And I just have to ask really fast. How many races do you do like a year?
Leslie: We said we weren't going to talk about it. I just, I ask it one,
Christina: just one question.
Ashley: Uh, I triathlons specifically five to six. Um, I'd probably run. Yeah. Wow to five, just like running races too. I like to keep busy.
Leslie: Yeah. I like to think it's because we got started Ashley at camp.
When we were trying to tandem Ryan run inside of a hula hoop together. I'm just imagining that's where this really all bloomed.
Christina: Is there a video of that?
Ashley: I wish there might be actually the cycling did. I wrote my first tandem at camp actually. I think that's really what like started traveling on like planting the seed of triathlon for me.
Leslie: I think this is such a great teaser to another episode that we're going to have to try to schedule in your busy, busy, busy schedule to confine time again, because I want to talk about all of your athletics. I want to talk about your career and the impact that you're making there, [00:28:00] but of course we are out of time, unfortunately, but Ashley, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you for being vulnerable. Thank for sharing your experience and thank you for still believing in leader, dog. I think that's so powerful. Obviously, I hope everybody can tell what we have such a great relationship with you. We call you all the time for different things. We always are asking you to share your experience and tell your story.
So thank you really for joining us today. Thank you for having me and thank you everyone for listening to the taking the lead podcast. I'm Leslie Hoskins with host Timothy Cuneo and Christina Hapner. We hope you enjoyed learning about Ashley's experience. Please join us next week as we continue to learn.
About the blindness journey. Yes. Have new. If you'd
Christina: like to learn more about applying to leader dog, you can head to leader, dog.org or call us at (888) 777-5332. Now don't forget, you can reach us at taking the lead of leader, dog.org with any questions or ideas. And if you like today's podcast, make sure to hit subscribe and check [00:29:00] us out wherever puck history.