Intro-Christina: Hey everyone it’s Christina and Leslie, we are so excited to be resharing this episode of the Taking the Lead podcast.
Leslie: If you are new here we are taking a small break and replaying some of our favorite episodes until we are back with new episodes in late summer! Enjoy!

Christina: Welcome to the taking the lead podcast, where we empower people to be unstoppable. I'm Christina Hepner with my cohost, Leslie Hoskins. And today we actually have a guest host because Timothy is enjoying a beautiful vacation in Alaska. So we have Sarah Claudia joining us. She's previously shared her story on the podcast, and today she's filling in for Timothy and we're so excited to have her now, while we miss Timothy, dear.
We're so excited to have you Sarah Claudia guest hosting, but we have to start with, I mean, how have things been going since we last talked to you? Oh my
goodness. Well, first it's an honor to be here as guest host. Um, I have big, big shoes to fill filling in for Timothy, but things have been great. Things have been busy.
Um, actually just got back from Michigan. Speaking at leader dog for a board social, which it was great to be back in Rochester Hills. I felt like I was coming home [00:01:00] and in the same week I also started graduate school. So I've been a little busy bee.
Leslie: Oh my goodness. Graduate school. What are you going back to school for?
Sara Claudia: I'm getting my master's in clinical mental health counseling. So my goal at the end of it is to be a licensed professional counselor, which I hope to integrate into my ministry. I'm really, really excited about it.
Leslie: That is amazing. Yeah, that's incredible. I love how long of a, a schooling is that?
Sara Claudia: It's two and a half years, and I'm only a weekend.
And I feel like I've been in it for two and a half years already. yeah.
Christina: I'm sure it's so hard when you go back to school. I feel like, like when I don't know if I could ever go back, like at this point I haven't been in school and it feels like forever, but like just getting back into that routine of.
Classes and homework, man, we
Leslie: never like, that's a little fun though. it sounds a little fun. It
Christina: does. It does learning new things is
Leslie: always great. [00:02:00] But, and it's gonna go by so fast. Like I'm sure it feels like that right now, but like once you get in a routine, I mean, good God, we're already in what month?
We're like summer's over basically. Yeah. You know, we're moving into the fall. It just goes by so fast.
It does. It's basically Christmas in my
Leslie: head. Like that's where I'm at. Claudia. It is BA I need to be wrapping gifts. I need to be. Oh yeah. But let's not rush that Michigan winter. Okay. I, no, I feel thank you, Matt.
I'm feeling, I love
Christina: this time of year in Michigan because it's just like, it starts to get cooler. It's not too hot, but it's not too cold. Jacket weather.
Leslie: pumpkin spice latte latte.
oh yeah. I mean, I am your, that's my favorite typical basic girl that loves that stuff. So love fall, fall. Fall is great here in Michigan.
Leslie: Yeah. Well, that's awesome. I'm so glad that you're going back. What a great degree I can imagine. You're gonna do amazing things with. Oh, well, thank you. I'm very excited about it. Yes. And thank you for being with us today. This is so [00:03:00] nice to have you joining us. Of course we do miss Timothy. Um, but it's nice to have a familiar voice back and to, to catch up with you and hear what you've been up to.
So that's great.
Sara Claudia: Yeah, so I'm honored to be here.
Leslie: Well, perfect. Thank you. Thank you. All right, so we're gonna go ahead and jump right into today's guest. She is an advocate in the blindness and disability community. We're excited. She's here today to share her experience with leader dog. But also being in advocacy and her work with diversity equity and inclusion within many organizations and communities.
Lero
Christina: Fullerton is the advocacy and community education director with disability network, Southwest Michigan. In this role, she works diligently with staff, board members and volunteers on carrying out the agency's mission of educating and connecting people with disabilities to resources while advocating social.
In addition to this Le also volunteers for several other nonprofit agencies in the Kalamazoo area after receiving, [00:04:00] receiving her master's degree in social work from Western Michigan university, Lera has made it her goal to assist advocate and represent people from marginalized groups in all that she does.
That's amazing.
Leah. Thank you so much for being with us today on the podcast. And I know we just got a really good introduction, but why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit more about
Leatrice: yourself. Good morning, everybody. So my name is Leatrice Fullerton and my pronouns are she, her and hers, and I was born and raised in Kalamazoo, Michigan, and I, uh, received my master's degree in social work from Western Michigan university.
So I've been here my whole life in Kalamazoo. Oh, Braas and I, yeah. Definitely go Broncos. I don't know anything about them, but they can get back . So I am a mother of two. I have a 17 year old Des. Her name is destiny, and she actually is a freshman at Western this semester. [00:05:00] And, um, Erin is 11 and he just started middle school.
So I'm, I'm doing this whole mom thing, wife thing, working it's it's. It's awesome. I. The third oldest of six girls and my mom was a single mom. And so I was born and raised and just grew up in poverty and, and, uh, just understand the, the, the things that different people experience. So one of the things that drives me in my work, especially in the field of social work is the relatability piece.
Like I totally understand what it feels like to be on the other side of. So to speak. So to go from, um, needing the assistance or seeking the assistance to being the one to provide the assistance, I'm going to do it justice to be from being the person who, so I, I had this degree in, in social work a master's, but it was still three years of actively seeking employment.
before, uh, being [00:06:00] offered my first part-time job in the field. And this is like rejection letter after rejection letter. So from going to that space to literally being the person who hires people. So I'm the director of advocacy and community education. So I take all that. Seriously. Everything is all about respect and humility.
So that's a little something about me. I love a good. You know, that's big and it gets up a coffee. I love coffee, so,
Leslie: oh, good. Then you can join our coffee discussion. We've had a big debate in here lately, but that's incredible Ric. I mean, I love your perspective and being on both sides of the desk, I think that's really unique and obviously impacts the work that you do.
So before we get in a little bit more into all the work that you're doing, let's talk a little bit more about your vision and your relationship with lit leader dog. And then we'll jump back into that. But do you mind telling us, uh, how you lost your vision or what is your vision like and why and how you found leader dog?
Leatrice: So not a problem. So I am, um, I was born [00:07:00] with congenital glaucoma and cataract. So I was born with my disability. I. Couldn't see. Well, but as I, I get older, my, my vision gets progressively worse. So I started out as being a child who was totally in denial about being blind or visually impair. Well, I. I was, I was not blind or visually impaired when I was a child in my mind, you know, I fell down some stairs, walking some to some walls, you know, but that's when I became visually impaired, not blind.
And so it's this, this notion really of disability pride and being told and shown this message that it is okay. To be you, disability is just a part of, uh, the human diversity characteristic. That's all it is. It's just, it just is right. And so once I got in that space, um, working at disability network or center for independent living.
I'm okay with being a person with a disability. So my vision has gotten progressively worse. I'm not able to [00:08:00] read large print or, you know, do things like that. I was used able to do when I was younger, but you know, now I'm leaning into assisted technology and learning more. So I shared earlier that I am a, uh, a parent.
And so I, my son had a concert, a winter concert. and my coworkers made me feel like a, an uninvolved mom, cuz I wasn't going. And I'm like, you know what fine. Alright. She got me. I, I can go. I do have PTO. I can, I can go to my son's con concert. So I did the independent thing and got Uber cuz at this time I, my 17 year old wasn't driving yet.
So I got an Uber and I, I, we got to the school and I had never been to this school una company. He was in fifth grade or fourth grade, but it was a new school. Mm-hmm and so. I asked the Uber driver, like, Hey, can you drop me off at the, at the door? And they're like, I don't know where the door is. And I'm like, what?
And so it's, it's snowing. It's cold and I need to get. [00:09:00] Um, so I had to, to get into the school. I mean, I'm using this white cane, but I have no clue what direction to go in. Right? Yeah. And this driver is not very helpful. So I literally FaceTimed my high schooler and was like, can you help me get in the door?
And so she helped me get in the door and then I got to the office and then I needed help finding the cafeteria from the office. And the staff was like, you would think that I was the first blind person who ever existed ever on earth. And just the concept of them. Showing me to the cafeteria was just beyond their comprehension or imagination and they couldn't get it.
And so eventually they walked me to the thing and then I sat down and then of course I felt like as a reasonable accommodation, they should have given my son a microphone so I could hear him sing, but that wasn't a thing. I couldn't hear him sing, but I, you know, I was there and he was very excited to see me.
So it was that that made me go. And I literally have a Facebook post where I put, I am about to get a guy done at this point. Like, it's time enough now. That was way too much. So at that point, I ended up going through the application process, which I found to be [00:10:00] totally accept, accessible and user friendly.
And I submitted my videos and a few months later, I wanna say April, I received a phone call saying that I would be added to the wait list. And this was like, right when the world closed and everything was kind of, you know, the world closed in March and this was things were kind of wild and unknown. And I actually, uh, got my first guide dog in July of 2020.
So we were the first class, I wanna say the first class in the nation to, to graduate from guide dog school in the pandemic. And so that was huge. And I'm sure it was totally different than what it usually is. Cause there were like, Participants. And that was perfect for me cause I love people, but I don't love like big, big crowds of people.
Yeah. Being, you know, in a, in a new place that's unfamiliar with a, a totally different concept of guide dogs. And so my teacher consultants and orientation, mobility instructors from being in school, are they still can't believe to this day that I not only have a dog? Cause I was definitely not a dog, a dog person, but a guide dog, which is selling to the telling the whole.
I'm blind. [00:11:00] Okay. So , and I'm okay with that. And so, but yes, I, I got the guide dog and, um, I had him for about. Months, but, uh, he kind of decided that, you know, guide dogging wasn't really what he was supposed to be doing. So he had a career change, he re he retired and then I was called back to guide dog. Um, you know, they put me back on the list and I came back in the summer of 2021 and got my current guide dog, Charlie.
And that has been a really, really awesome match. And he is he's he's. So, yeah,
Christina: Lero, that's a great story to share as well because the matches don't always work out the way they should. And the fact that you were willing to come back too, to try it out again is such a big thing too, cuz I know that, you know, during the pandemic, I'm sure that was hard to have to deal with as well.
Um, but we are so happy that you found your match. Oh,
Sara Claudia: this is Sarah Claudia. I'm gonna say you must have been there. [00:12:00] Around the same time. I got my first leader, dog Jackson. I got him in August of 2021. So we might have just crossed paths
Leatrice: there. Yep. I, so I graduated at, in our same session both years, so I, I got, I graduated with one dog on like July 30 and the next year, July 30, no, July 31 1 year.
And then July 30th, the following year with the other dog. And, and the, it just was the independence that I got. Like, he, he wasn't a perfect man, but I was able to get a taste of independence and like having the ability. Walk to the library or walk to the park or, you know, go to a restaurant by myself. And that I wasn't willing to like go without, after experiencing that.
I'm like, no, I want to come back. And my instructor was, was, was awesome. Of course I was like, couldn't believe that I was literally crying when I gave the first guy dog rack. Like, I didn't know that it, like, I loved him the way I did. And I still text with, with his puppy razor and I still text with my current, uh, dog's puppy razor [00:13:00] as well.
Leslie: That's great. I love that. I love hearing, uh, the stories in which people come to realize they are interested in a guide dog. It's so unique. Somebody the other day was talking about a Facebook post that they were like, oh yeah, this is what I wanna do. And you're saying, you know, an experience taking your son or going to see your son at one of his musical performances.
Like that was enough. It wasn't a great situation. It sounds like people weren't super helpful. And you were like, I'm ready for some more independence. I want, you know, a guide dog to be able to assist with those things. Such a unique experience to get there. And then Ida had no idea that you had a dog and then had to return the dog and get another dog.
So you have really been through the ring of these last couple
Leatrice: years? Yes, absolutely. But, and, but both instructors were awesome, you know? So my, the, my instructor from the first year was Wendy and she just was amazing. And then the second year I had Meredith and she was like, amazing. And so it just, it was just, it was really, really.
and I learned lots, you know, like, you know, there's boundaries. [00:14:00] Don't, you know, I had no boundaries with the first dog. I would just let him do whatever he, he was. In my bed and just all these things I would know that I was told not to do. And so now with the second dog, it's like, oh, we're not even gonna cross that line.
You , I'll sit on the floor with you. I I'll sit down here with you. So,
Leslie: so thank you for sharing your leader, dog journey. I find that so interesting and intriguing and love that you are part of the leader, dog family now, so recently, or within the last year, I guess time is going by. So. You actually came virtually and spoke with leader dog about diversity, equity and inclusion.
Do you mind telling us a little bit about that?
Leatrice: Absolutely. So I was, uh, contacted and it was requested that I reach out or that I could, that I speak with, uh, everybody, um, the, the leader dog team about diversity equity and inclusion, cuz this is something that is very important to me. And right now it's kind of like a, it's like a buzz movement, right?
But unfortunately, in a lot of instances, when we talk about diversity, equity and inclusion, we are not [00:15:00] including disability in that framework, in those conversations. And it's wild because like I shared earlier, we view disability as just a human diversity characteristic. So it should be there. Right. If you're talking about diversity, equity and inclusion and not talking about disability, you're doing it wrong.
You're being kind of exclusionary. And that's definitely not the goal of a lot of these DEI communities or committees. And so I it's like a personal thing for me and the team that I am on and, and supervise that we gotta just go to different places and even get on committees or do pre presentations where we highlight disability and disability discrimination, which is able.
and a lot of people haven't heard that we've heard the terms, racism and sexism, maybe even classism, but ableism is a new one, a new concept that we have a difficult time off wrapping our minds around. And so what I'm finding is for a lot of people from different marginalized groups, you show up at these places.
So disability networks, Southwest, Michigan, we get it, we get disability, right. But [00:16:00] racism work anti-racism work is not our focus. So we won't, we won't lean. As much. And so I am on an anti-racism committee at a, at another, uh, nonprofit in, in town. But our focus here is anti-racism work. It's not ableism, it's not taking care and making sure that people with dis abilities are hurt.
And so it's like, well, I wanna be in a place where people can bring their full selves to every table. And until then, I'm just gonna sit at 153 tables and say, Yeah, but what about people with disabilities or how can we make this process fully accessible for people with disabilities? Like I, everywhere I, everywhere I go is work and I, I don't mind it cuz it's like, Hey, if, if I'm at a doctor's office, Oh, did you, can you, you wanna fill out this check in paperwork and, uh, no, I, I, I can't are you, can you, can your staff help me?
Oh, well, can your daughter help me or help you? And I'm like, I don't want my daughter writing down my health history. I might have some things I'm not ready to share with her, you know? [00:17:00] So, um, let's make it accessible. And so now I, I won't say that it's a result of my advocacy, but I'll say that it is a result of technology evolving that we have these eCheck in options, but DEI is just so it's it.
It's essential. True DEI though. Not exclusionary where you say, oh, you can sit here and talk about dismantling a certain harmful pressure or systems of oppression, but we won't talk about dis disability discrimination. We won't make this process inclusive. So it's just it's. It is just that. So I'm like, it's a crusade and so I had the opportunity to share space with the leader dog crew, and just say.
It's awesome that you guys are doing that because intersectionality is a thing and we all need to recognize that. And so intersectionality is a framework for conceptual conceptualizing or putting people from marginalized groups in an understanding that they can be hit by more than one form of oppression.
So I tell people that I reside [00:18:00] at, um, the intersection of race because I am black. Disability cause I'm a person with a disability and I am a woman. So you have all these things. And so when I was looking for employment and was not successful at be, uh, at finding employment, was it because of my disability?
Was it because of my race? Was it my, the, the address that was on my resume? Because at that point I was living, um, in a low poverty, a high up, uh, an area that has high poverty rates in Kalamazoo. So what was the cause of discrimination or was it all of. all of those reasons. I came into this space that wasn't very welcoming to diverse groups and I, and I wanted a job and they're like, yeah, I'm not comfortable with that.
So it's, it's important. It's important, very meaningful and rewarding work. Like I, I love that. Yeah. The
Christina: amount of work you're doing is amazing. And I remember sitting in on your presentation, I can't even remember when it was, um, it was so long ago, but I think it's also an important reminder at all the time, because.[00:19:00]
and people's day to day life. Sometimes they forget those things. So in your mm-hmm , you know, you're, you're doing those presentations can help bring it to the forefront, can help remind people to be mindful of the way that they are doing things in their day to day lives and maybe switch their perspectives.
Cuz sometimes people grow up in a certain area and that's all they know and they forget to look outside of themselves.
Leatrice: Absolutely. And sometimes you find that it's not the, you know, it it's like having certain privileges is not a bad thing. And sometimes it's, we, we think about that and, and like there's guilt associated with it, you know?
And even at, even though I have all these different, um, marginalizations, I do have some privilege. And I'm, it's not a bad thing, but it's important for me to recognize that. And how can I be most assisted to other individuals who don't have the same privileges that I do. And then we need to examine our intent versus impact.
I may not be intending to be exclusionary with my DEI work, but what's the impact. You have people [00:20:00] with disabilities sitting at these tables who don't feel welcome there, or who feel tokenized. So it's, let's look at the impact. How am I impacting others? Is this work doing what I want it to do? Is it impacting people in a positive.
Like those are questions that you can always ask.
Christina: Yeah. I mean, and it sounds like you're so passionate about everything you do that, you know, I wanna ask what your favorite part of your work is, but it sounds like you're passionate about all of it, but if you had to choose, um, you know, something that you do day to day, do you have something that you're absolutely.
Is
Leatrice: your favorite part? Um, my absolute favorite thing to do is. Doing community presentation, doing presentations and facilitating trainings for different folks, because I, I just love it. There there's a whole energy there. People are able to, because with me, like, it's like, interrupt me. If there's a question, you know, call me out.
If you think that I was wrong with the statement that I made, like, let's, let's go, well, you can disagree with me. Like, I just, I love that because I love people. [00:21:00] So then when people come up to me years later and go, oh my gosh, you did this amazing training years ago. And I'm like, I have no clue what you're talking about, but I'm glad you enjoy it.
You know? So I, I do, I love that. I love that. It's it's, it's like, oh, let's get a good cup of coffee, do a good, you know, do a little concert, a mini mini concert to myself and then get on zoom and I'm ready. So I, I love doing stuff like that.
Leore I love hearing how passionate you are about this and. Being somebody with a disability myself.
I also know how exhausting it can be to constantly be educating. And so it's important to have people like you who have that passion for it, but I'm curious. Did you always know that you wanted to work in advocacy and community help? Or how did all of that
Leatrice: kind of evolve? I went into social work and I, I wanted to assist people who had background similar to my own, but I wanted to do more one on one case management [00:22:00] type assistance.
And so I did that for the first. I've been with the agency for a little over eight years and I started out with doing. One on one or information referral work. So that kind of thing. And I did a few community education presentations, and then the, the agency, we felt that that was best that I moved over to the advocacy and community ed team.
And I love doing that. And I think what's really hard about me is I love doing everything. Like I want, I wanna help people. I still wanna do the, the day to day thing, but I've never, I, I, I just, I, I, I never would've thought when people had said things to me like, oh, I see you being a leader in this agency.
I'm like, oh my goodness, whatever. Um, but there's, there's things that I do just, just naturally a lot of these committees that I talk about, I do with my volunteer. I volunteer. That's not associated to my employment. This is just volunteer work. I mean, and, and like you shared, uh, advocacy is exhausting though.
So I do need to be mindful of that because burnout is a thing. but sometimes you [00:23:00] just can't help it. Like when you go vote, like voting is a thing that we all need to do and there's accessible voting a technology at the, at the polling locations. So even just me going to vote turns into advocacy cuz you know, of course we don't wanna hook it up or we can't help you with that.
And it's like, They, you know, they go, oh, do you know next in November, you can just vote absentee and have your daughter help you fill your ballot out. I'm like, or I can come to my designated polling location and you guys can hook up the voting equipment and I do. Right. And she's like, yeah. Okay. All give you my stuff.
So I can. Yeah. And both
Leslie: that's awesome. Just so much education. Right? So many people just don't know what they don't know. They don't. And because they're not, you know, through your lens or somebody else's lens, they just have no idea. There's no perspective there. Um, so I think that's incredible. I love the work that you're doing.
I wanna ask though, how can people get involved in advocacy or D E and I initiatives, what can people do if they, they themselves feel like they wanna get [00:24:00] involved in some.
Leatrice: Awesome. Thanks for asking. So something that a lot of times people don't know is a lot of these, a lot of nonprofits in town, they are looking for board and community members who are from the community, but then the, on the other side, you have community members who have no clue that.
These are, these are things that places need. So you have these agencies who come up with these policies and practices are that are totally Ables and exclusionary, but it's not because they want to be that way. It's because this is the way we think it should be. Or the most problematic statement ever.
It's the way we've always done things. That's yeah. So you don't know what you don't know, kinda like you guys just said earlier. So I would say one thing that is very important. This is both for people with disabilities and people without is, uh, nothing's gonna change until you, if you change nothing, nothing will ever change if you, so it's like, okay, let's get involved.
Let's I know that our agency. Which is disability network. It's, uh, DN S [00:25:00] wm.org. We have a website and there's like this monthly publication that comes out with different advocacy issues in the disability community. And you can sign up to receive that. And then there's like, oh, we'll click this link to contact your legislator.
Or sometimes it's not doing sometimes advocacy is research. So reading on what's going on, what what's happening here? How can. Make the change speaking up, we need allies. Every social justice movement wouldn't be as, as successful as it was, if it weren't for allies. So if you are a person who is not a part of certain marginalized groups, but you, you understand the need for change being ally and check in with that group to say, what is it that you, that you guys need?
How can I be helpful? So just tapping into nonprofits, tapping into advocacy websites, doing that research and reaching out to the impacted groups to say, how can I do meaningful work? I want to help make this place [00:26:00] a better place before my time ends. So those are tips.
Leslie: Thank you. Thank you so much Laris for joining us today, sharing all of the amazing work that you're doing, but also educating us, letting us know how we can get involved as well.
We really appreciate you being on the podcast
Leatrice: today. Not a problem. Thank you so much for this amazing opportunity and for your willingness to Sarah's face with me this morning.
Leslie: and Sarah Claudia. We wanna thank you as well for being our special guest host today. What an honor to have you back. Well,
thank y'all.
It was the honor to be here.
Leslie: and of course, thank you so much to our listeners for listening to the, taking the lead podcast. I'm Leslie Haskins with host Christina Hepner and our guest host Sarah Claudia. We hope you enjoyed learning about Leros and the amazing work she is doing. Please join us next week.
As we continue to dive into the world of blind. And if you'd like
Christina: to learn more about applying to leader dog, you can head to leader, dog.org or call us at (888) 777-5332. And don't forget, you can [00:27:00] reach us at taking the lead at leader, dog.org. With any questions or ideas, if you like today's podcast, make sure to hit subscribe and check us out wherever podcast street.