Taking The Lead Podcast_040924_Rod
Christina: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Taking the Lead podcast where we empower people to be unstoppable. I'm Christina Hoeppner with my co-host, Leslie Hoskins and Timothy Kew. We're about a month away from one of our big events this year, which is Bark and Brew. We're in the eighth year, isn't that? That's crazy. Eight years already.
Yeah. Timothy came to Bark and Brew last year.
Timothy: Yeah, we didn't tell you guys. We were coming up there and it was Leslie's birthday that weekend also. I know.
Leslie: Yeah. Oh, I know. It's a little sad. It's not gonna be on my birthday this year. This year. It's gonna be on Saturday, June 8th. We can still celebrate. I'm always interested in celebrating.
Yeah.
Christina: Yeah. And what's nice about this event too, is we add, for all the runners that running component at the beginning, there's the 5K, the one mile run walk. And this year, if you. We're doing something called a double dog D combo. What is that? What if you finish both the one mile and the 5K, you get a bigger metal?
So what? Yeah, I have not seen the bigger medal yet, but I [00:01:00] heard it's gonna be pretty cool if you're one of those people who like to collect metals, race metals, I should say. Okay. Yeah, I won't be doing that, but I might do. See, I'm trying to talk Johnny into doing the 5K. Oh gosh, not the win. Oh, not this
Leslie: again,
Christina: Timothy.
Leslie: I can't handle it.
Timothy: I'll tell you. Give it up, Christina. Give it up.
Leslie: You know what I will say, so we've had a lot of feedback from listeners about. The, the frozen Paw 5K with suggestions on what to do to determine if Christina or Johnny won. And so we have some things to consider this time around. Yeah, somebody said give um, a physical coin, right?
Yeah. Either you and Johnny both have a physical coin and the first one to give me the coin wins,
Christina: but at the end of it, most people were like, but I really do believe you win won. Like,
Leslie: I got some emails, I think it was 50 50, I would say people are still. Believing Johnny, listen, I was there. I saw it live.
Christina: But yeah, so the Barking brew though is in downtown Rochester. We use Rochester Mills Brewing Company [00:02:00] there in Rochester. It's presented by Chief Financial Credit Union. Thankful to have them as our presenting sponsor for that event as well. So if you are in the Rochester area or a metro Detroit area, great event to come out with the kids.
It is a
Leslie: lot of fun. Yes. I bring my kids every year and there's a big kid zone with inflatables and carnival games and they can play and we can kind of hang out and socialize and nobody is bored, I'll tell you that.
Timothy: A lot of people go to that. I was surprised how if it was there last year, uh, it was a great drive up to Michigan and, and the beer was good.
Yeah,
Christina: the beer is good. Yes. And, uh, so we, the admission is reduced actually this year. Mm-Hmm. $5 across the board. That includes, so that's ages three and up and for kids, that includes the play area. Mm-Hmm. So you don't have to purchase that extra. So we did that this year as a thank you to all of our patrons in this eighth year of Bark and Brew, which I can't
Leslie: believe it's been eight years.
I know it's gone really fast, but it's been really [00:03:00] fun. So we hope to see you there. You can, of course, always learn more@leaderdog.org. Bark and Brew is up on the website and you can find out more information, buy tickets, all of that good stuff. But we hope to see you there. All right. Well, let's move right along because we have a very important guest today.
Today's guest is a leader dog team member who has had a huge impact on your organization and in just the blindness and low vision field, so much so that we just will not let him retire.
Christina: Yes. Rod Heline has been a member of the Leader Dog team since 1979. FRA was the Chief operations Officer for more than 20 years and is internationally recognized for his extensive knowledge in developing advanced ONM instructional programs.
His developed integrated methods for uses of canes and dogs as well as GPS in both ONM and Guide dog programs. He was inducted into the Outstanding Alumni Academy at Western Michigan University for his work in the blind rehabilitation field. And those are just a few of his many accomplishments. [00:04:00] And Rodda actually still works at Leader Dog.
He's a consultant and he provides orientation and mobility services to clients on a weekly basis.
Timothy: Rod, it's great to have you on the podcast this morning. Can you tell us how you originally got involved with Leader Dog and what's this about a parachute?
Rod: Well, at the time I was, uh, quite a prolific, uh, skydiver and, uh, I was asked to jump an American flag into an event at, uh, Rochester College, and I did, and I saw a sign, uh, reader Dogs had a, a display there.
And I said, uh, well, you know, I could probably, I could probably do that. I was, uh, fairly fresh out of the, uh, military as a a, a narcotics detector dog handler. And, uh, as they say, the rest is history. I talked to a, a fellow named Smitty, who's no longer with us, but uh, was hired into the kennel and, and, and off we went.
Christina: What I know. Wait, how have I, nobody since I've been at Leader Dog has ever told me that story. Really? It's
Leslie: one of my [00:05:00] favorite stories. Yeah. Rod. Literally para shoot it in. Just casually skydiving.
Timothy: Just jumped right in. Yeah, jumped right in.
Leslie: I think that's probably gotta be the most unique story of getting involved with Leader Dog.
Rod: Uh, yeah, it's a little different,
Leslie: but how fantastic. And honestly, it sounds like you landed in just the right spot, so you kind of had that military background in working with dogs over it. So probably Leader Dog, like you said, was a natural fit. So you started off in the canine center? Well, it was the kennel then.
Now the Canine Center. And then what happened? Because obviously you have had a very extensive career at Leader Dog.
Rod: Well, yeah, to be honest with you, it was going to be a stop gap to, uh, finish school.
Okay.
Rod: And, uh, I finished school and, uh, I was still, uh, here and, uh, I was promoted to an instructor after, uh, a couple years in the kennel and finished school and became an [00:06:00] instructor and did that for several years.
And then, um, the opportunity presented itself, uh. For orientation mobility, which to be honest with you, uh, I don't think any of us really knew what it was. Yeah. And, uh, during my tenure as uh, I was promoted to, uh, the director of client services, I actually found out that, um, Western Michigan University did seminars.
For, uh, the Guide Dog School on the East Coast.
Hmm.
Rod: And, uh, so my immediate question is, why aren't we included in that?
Yeah.
Rod: And, uh, we did what we had to do to get our instructors there, and I was part of the first group that went, and that was kind of the discovery of, um, this is a, there's a better way to do things and a more holistic approach to the client if we could, uh, somehow, uh, integrate this into a guide dog program.
Leslie: That was huge, right? Like that was such a big deal in the field because prior to [00:07:00] kind of discovering orientation and mobility or prioritizing orientation mobility, which again is those long white cane skills, we, uh, tell me if this is true. This is what I've heard back in the day when clients used to come on campus with their canes, we took their canes away 'cause they didn't need 'em anymore.
Rod: Yes. That's, that's say that now.
Did not speak to the orientation mobility industry. And they were two very separate tracks and they did not mix. And that, uh, really all started to change. Uh. Uh, Lucas Frank from the CNI who returned to Western, he got his mobility degree. I followed him the following year. Uh, he got my mobility degree and then, uh, the school on the West coast sent someone and they got their mobility degree.
So that put three, [00:08:00] uh, mobility instructors within Guide Dog Schools.
Christina: Wow.
Rod: And that was, uh, that was kind of the start of how it, we started talking to each other.
Christina: And we've had orientation and mobility at Leader Dog now for more than 20 years. But in the grand scheme of things, that's really a short amount of time for an organization that's been around for more than 80 years.
So what was that shift like when we brought those services onto campus?
Rod: Well, I'll tell you the, the, the shift was really about, uh, getting people to stop thinking of us as a dog business. And think of us as a people business and through strategic planning and a lot of different, uh, conversations within the senior team here at Leader Dogs and the Board, um, we kind of decided that the holistic approach and servicing a person was a much better approach than just taking the, uh, [00:09:00] tack that we're gonna only supply one mobility aid.
And once again, to the your point, moving a culture that would actively remove a mobility device from a person their cane, because they don't need it anymore, according to us. Uh, and getting an organization to move to the side that says, keep your cane. Uh, we're gonna keep you how to, we're gonna teach you how to use your cane as well as, uh, the dog.
And the shift was slow. It's like turning an aircraft, aircraft carrier, and it took time, but eventually the shift did start to turn. And as we saw the return on our investment in that, servicing more clients and more clients able to come for, uh, leader dogs. Uh, because we could provide the orientation, mobility skills, it just naturally started, become ingrained in the culture over time.
Christina: Yeah. And Timothy, you've been to campus for both programs, o and m and Guide Dog. Could you imagine not coming [00:10:00] for o and m, taking your K nine? You would've never met Leslie?
Timothy: No. Oh, that been, that'd been sad. Well, see, I didn't have the training when I came to meet Leslie, so I had to have that o and m training.
Because, you know, your, your dog can go down one day and if you don't have the skills, you're, you're gonna be lost. So I'm, I'm grateful for a leader dog given that opportunity to get the OM instruction and stuff. My question, rod, is how much has changed over those years when you started to now?
Rod: Oh my goodness.
Well, you know, it's been, um, I've been blessed to, uh, to be a voyeur and watch as all of this has, uh, changed. So we went from a. Mom and pop, so to speak. Mm-Hmm. Uh, operation that was totally dependent, not totally, I shouldn't say, but a, a great deal of our dependency on the lions and funding and for clients.
And over time as we shifted and became more sophisticated in our fundraising, more sophisticated in our service [00:11:00] provision, um, it's just been a treat to watch the whole organization shift to take this. Buy-in 110%, buy-in that we're here to service you. Uh, whether it's with a cane or a.
Leslie: You were a huge piece of that transition.
I mean, without you and kind of prioritizing and learning about orientation, mobility and making it a big deal and recognize like the need for it, who knows what would've happened? But I wanna kinda go back to that. So Timothy found us at Leader Dog or came to us because he was not unable to get services basically through his state agency.
And you, rod and Lucas Frank and Chuck Faria. I hope I said his name right, but basically you did. Okay, good. I just met him so it was very exciting. But you and Chuck and Lucas being from the three big guide dog organizations kind of coming together and writing that Canaries in the coal mine in 2011, can you tell us a little bit about that?
'cause I'm so curious on your perspective [00:12:00] about writing it in 2011 and then now in 2024.
Rod: Well, that just shows you how long it takes the industry to turn. Well, it, it's one of those things that started over beer and well things, do you know how that goes? Uh, and our conversation was about if something's not done.
To change the way the service provision model that's out there, then we're gonna be in big trouble for clients, for guide dogs because we saw orientation and mobility, uh, sticking to the old medical model
Mm-Hmm. Of
Rod: this long, drawn out provision of services. And then we see the state saying, well, we can't afford to do this, so we're not going to do it.
And we basically said, there's a different way to do this. And we presented it, uh, not only in a paper for, uh, JVIB, which is a journal of Visual Impairment and Blindness, but we also pre presented it at a Josephine Taylor Leadership Institute, which is all the leaders, uh, within the industry, [00:13:00] and, uh, laid it out that something needs to be done.
I think people, you know, nodded their heads and looked at it very seriously. But just, you know, moving state agencies or private agencies can be very difficult. And obviously the monetization of orientation mobility services becomes an issue. So we were able to, uh, uh, put together our thoughts. And, uh, some of that ended up in the Red Book because prior to that orientation, mobility really didn't cross with, uh.
Guide dogs. Mm-Hmm. Just separate chapter about guide dogs. And we started talking about how we implement and integrate and, uh, we figured if the three of us from the big three schools could move that, uh, in any way or at least plant the seeds, uh, we should do it. And, and so we did it.
Leslie: And that article is still referenced all the time, canaries in the coal mine because you guys are such big names in the field and you guys really were the ones to kind of shift that mindset and [00:14:00] recognize that need.
Mm-Hmm. Did this, you know, these conversations and everything obviously impacted the structure that you came up with for our o and m program at Leader Dog because we are a completely different model. So how did you develop that or even think of that because it, I think this is one of the only ones that does this and that we have o and m for one week and really focus on it.
Rod: So now this trial and error, uh, let's try this. We'll see how this works. But basically it was, uh, I, I have a strong belief that if we concentrate, uh, learning in one area, that we should be able to create the muscle memory and, uh, everything that goes with the muscle memory in a shorter period of time than weeks and weeks.
And thus far, it's proven to work for. Our model was developed, uh, by the, uh, the folks who work here. I, I like to say, you know, I had the privilege of painting with a big roller. It was up to a lot of other people to [00:15:00] go cut it in and make it work. And, uh, my hacks off to those folks for making it work because some point in time I, I handed it over and stepped back.
And the growth and what the team now has done has been, uh, nothing short of phenomenal.
Timothy: So Rod, I use my Victor Reader Trek a lot. Mm-Hmm. What was that like back when they started implementing that into the o and m for you?
Rod: Well, I'm not the biggest tech guy, but I saw, and the team saw the need and I, I'll tell you a quick story.
Our first foray into GPS. Was a Blackberry
uhhuh,
Rod: uh, if anyone remembers those. Yes. That, that had a plastic sleeve with buttons that slid over it. And so when you touch these buttons, it actually touched the screen and it was a extremely complicated device to use. Uh, very complicated. And we decided we would try to train, uh, an individual with it.
And we brought a, a, a young guy [00:16:00] from, uh, Florida in, uh, who was very techie. And, um, we handed it over to him and, uh, said, you know, spend the evening familiarizing yourself. Gave him some basic instruction. Well, this kid showed up the next day and he knew more about this device than we did, and that's the honest of God's truth.
He did. And at one point we were driving in a vehicle and he figured out there was a motorized mode
on.
Rod: He says, Hey dude, uh, how fast you going? I said, about 30, 35. He says, dude, speed limit is 25.
And uh, we said, oh, well there's value in the taxi too. Yeah, yeah. Uh, and then from there the technology kept shifting and we stayed on top of it and kept looking for newer and better ways. Along came the captain, uh, and we had a relationship with those folks. And then, uh, [00:17:00] our relationship with Humanware has always been strong for probably 25 years.
And once we hooked up with those folks and, uh, started doing all the beta testing for 'em and really giving the feedback of how to make products that were actually, uh, would work and, and easy for blind and visioning period person, which brings us to today with Victor Reader Trek, which is, uh, a pretty simple device to use in multipurpose.
So it's, it's done well. We're at a point, uh, in the evolution of leader Dogs that my personal feeling is we need to start looking at phones and how we can teach blind and visually impaired people to make better use of that technology for GPS. 'cause it's readily available, it's free, uh, with the exception obviously the phone and just about everyone carries one.
And so it's probably an area we should, should, uh, start looking at to take the technology to the next step.
Christina: Yeah, it's so amazing how much technology changes every day [00:18:00] too. I feel like every year there's a new iPhone coming out or there's a new piece of technology coming out. I mean, Timothy, not too long ago, you got to test out a robotic guide dog.
So I guess, what do you see, you know, happening in the next five to 10 years at Leader with these changes in technology?
Rod: In the next five to 10 years, I will officially retire.
I dunno.
Rod: So that's one of them. I, I, I truly do think that the technology is in the phone. I, I think that's a direction that we need to embrace.
A lot of folks come in here with, uh, phones that know nothing more than how to text or make a phone call. And got some very powerful technology right in our hands right there, that if we could, uh, create the curriculum to teach that, uh, that's probably the next step within technology. Uh, in the other areas over the next five to 10 years, I think we will see, um.
We should [00:19:00] look at, uh, some of the visual conditions that are not legally blind. Mm-Hmm. Such as, uh, Opia.
Mm-Hmm.
Rod: And things that, uh, our training could really enhance their travel ability, yet they don't meet the criteria for legal blindness. Yeah. So, uh, those are two areas I think we have room for growth within our curriculums.
Leslie: Yeah, it's crazy when you think about, yeah, where it started that that first device, I believe had like 39 buttons, if I remember correctly.
Rod: Oh. It was ridiculous.
Leslie: And they were tiny little buttons. And then the progression that we saw when I started at Leader Dog, we were using the captain. And then from there we did the Trekker Breeze and the Trek and the Victory Reader Track.
And I think now the. The latest Humanware device is Stellar Trek and the buttons, I believe it only has al like nine buttons or less, but the technology is crazy and the Stellar Trek you can actually use like kind of the camera and it'll tell like an address or it can read some things. So very, very cool.
[00:20:00] And I agree, everybody has a phone, everybody's using a phone, and the more we can help people utilize it is is gonna be beneficial. So now though, 'cause you are not officially retired, we just will not let you do that. Uh, you are teaching o and m, so you're back on the streets working with clients.
One-on-one providing orientation and mobility. What has that been like? Kind of going from, right, you're responsible for so many things as the chief operating officer and the vp and then kind of getting to get back on, you know, boots on the ground working with clients. What's that like?
Rod: It's wonderful.
The first, uh, year or so was a little difficult letting go of the reigns, you know, of leadership, especially when problems would rise and people would look at me. I just. Throw it out there. Let's see what you got. But I, I will tell you this, it's, um, I can't thank the organization enough for giving me the opportunity to let me just go back and teach.
And some people have said, you know, that's gotta be a very [00:21:00] difficult transition to go from the, the top, so to speak. Mm-Hmm. Uh, down to back, down to boots on the ground. And in reality with the team we've got here, leader dog, no issue whatsoever. Uh, at least for me or them. And, uh, I enjoy it every day. It's just, uh, I can't tell you.
And it's the same thing the guide dog instructors would talk about is the fulfillment that we get of seeing, uh, the difference in someone when they walked in our door and then when they walk out of our door and, uh. Mean, you just can't beat it. And I always say, you know, I get paid to have fun and exercise.
What's what's wrong with that?
Leslie: And we talk to so many clients who get to work with you and I'm always like, do you understand like you're working with Rod Hane line? Like he is huge. And not only at Leader do, but just in the industry, in the field of blindness in low vision. So people are always so excited to work with you.
And then I tell the team too. Because you're in the office with all the other o and m instructors. I'm like, you guys have no idea. Like Rod Heline is in here [00:22:00] with you. Get to chat with him all the time. I'm like, observe everything, right? Because you have so many years of experience. And with that guide dog knowledge with the o and m, I just think it's so nice that they have access to you and that you're still providing services.
So we're so thankful that you are there, um, and not quite ready to let you go. But what will you do? And that when that day, I guess finally comes, what will retirement be like for Rod?
Rod: Boy, that's the million dollar question. I, I, a lot of people think that they know exactly what they're gonna do, but, um, you know, I'll be honest, this has been such a part of my life that I don't believe I'll ever be able to walk away.
And, uh, I think retirement may be, uh, call me back when you need me. Or, you know, your summer schedules get full. I don't really know. I think travel, probably, uh, my wife is. I've been all over the world. I've been blessed, uh, because of leader dogs and speaking at conferences all over the world. Uh, but she [00:23:00] hasn't, so I, I think I'm gonna have to take and show her a few places.
Christina: Yeah. That seems like the right thing
Leslie: to do.
Christina: Right? Well, and there's so many people that have retired in the last few years that are now volunteering or they come in, so I don't think anyone ever really retired from their
Rod: dog. No. No. Why? Why, why? You know, it's just, it fulfills a piece of you. It, uh, it makes you happy.
And the people that we work with here, as you guys know, you're not gonna find a better group of people to work with. So Absolutely. Don't go anywhere.
Christina: Yeah. I still cannot get over that. You sky dove in, like, literally that is all I can think about. I was like, man, I did it all wrong. I should have gone skydiving, dove right in and yeah.
That's how you'll have to go out too. I'll tell
Rod: the truth. Skydiving and competing and skydiving, uh, opened up more doors than anything you can possibly imagine. I bet of meeting people and. Obviously you got me my job, so,
Christina: all right. I gotta pick up a new hobby now. Yeah.
Rod: You better check with Johnny.
Christina: Yeah. [00:24:00] I have SC Skydived before.
Really? Yeah. Oh my God. I don't think I could make the jump. I did it when I was, did somebody push you 25? Because I was like, you know what? I'm reaching that quarter. Of, yeah. You know, it was a, it was a mid midlife, so mid-twenties crisis. I didn't tell anyone I was doing it either. Completely on my own.
Well, not on my own. I had someone on my back. I
Rod: assume you went, uh, tandem. You were strapped. Yes. I,
Christina: I did not just jump outta a plane on my own free will. I mean, it was my own free will, but someone was on my back.
Rod: Well, good for you. A professional for you. At least you experienced
Christina: it. Yeah, it was very cool.
I'd do it again. I've
Rod: made sure all my kids have experienced it and they haven't been back.
Leslie: Really?
Rod: Oh,
Leslie: I loved it. So what other, are you like an adrenaline junkie? Do you do other things? Have you bungee jumped? Like what other, I don't even know what would compare to skydiving.
Rod: I'll say I used to be an adrenaline junkie.
I'm much more cautious in my old age. Smart. But I still ski, um, pretty steep, uh, stuff out west, [00:25:00] uh, which is all about speed. And, uh, yeah, I, I still hang it out there a little bit, but nowhere near what I, what I used to, like, I used a lot rock climbing. And, uh, now it's okay. I, I could probably get up there, but how am I gonna get down?
Leslie: Just strap a parachute, apparently, just jump right off.
Rod: Much more, much more cautious in my old age.
Leslie: That's fair. That's fair. Well, rod, we wanna thank you for joining us today and taking the time out of your day. I know you are also teaching this week, so to be able to step away for this hour, we appreciate it.
And thank you for everything you've done in the field. Honestly, leader Dog is so lucky to have you and continue to have you at the organization, but also just the field, right? People who are blind are visually impaired and the professionals working. So thank you for everything.
Rod: Well, we're gonna keep feeding you guys that.
Magic Kool-Aid. Thank you for all the accolades. Yes. I think it, you know, the team is really [00:26:00] what deserves the accolades. They're the ones that have, uh, really held this together as well as our board in believing in what we're doing. Because if they don't believe in what we're doing, we're, we're not gonna get far So.
Leslie: As spoken like a true leader, rod. Ah, you are right. You've just done so much. So it's an honor to have you here and we didn't even talk about all of your accolades and accomplishments, but we are just so thankful to have you. And so thank you and thank you so much to our listeners for listening to the Taking the Lead podcast.
I'm Leslie Hoskins with host Timothy Kyo and Christina Hepner. We hope you enjoyed learning about Rod and again, all the incredible impact that he's had on the organization and in the blindness and low vision field. So please join us next time as we continue to dive into the world of blindness.
Christina: And if you'd like to learn more about applying to our free services at Leader Dog, you can head to leader dog at.org or call us at (888) 777-5332.
And don't forget, you can reach us at taking the lead@leaderdog.org with any [00:27:00] questions or ideas. If you like today's podcast, make sure to hit subscribe and check us out wherever podcast stream.