Taking The Lead Podcast_061626_Dave_Melissa
Leslie: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Taking the Lead podcast, where we empower people to be unstoppable. I'm Leslie Hoskins, with my co-hosts, Alyssa Otis and Timothy Cugno. Happy Disability Pride Month, guys.
Alyssa: Happy Disability Pride. I cannot believe we are so far into the summer already.
Timothy: Man. July. It is flying by fast,
Leslie: isn't it?
Yes. Fourth of July weekend here.
Alyssa: Fourth of July. Lots going on. Lots of barbecues, lots of fireworks.
Leslie: Timothy, any thoughts or suggestions? How do you handle the Fourth of July weekend?
Timothy: Well, we do not take Glacier near. We did that one time, and boy, did I learn a bad lesson that night. So, uh, we keep her at home, and, uh, we go do whatever fireworks at my church or wherever we wanna go, and Glacier just sits at home and relax as much as possible.
Alyssa: That's a really good plan for, for anybody, whether it's a, a guide or a pet. Uh, here's our little PSA from a guide dog mobility [00:01:00] instructor, is I would suggest not taking a dog to fireworks. Um, you know, you never know how a dog's gonna react, but with those loud pops of sounds, the vibration of the ground, the colors, and the crowds, don't even forget the crowds- Yeah
that's a lot for a dog, you know? And leaving them home oftentimes is the best option, and there's even things that you can do at home when you're not there to help your dog. So maybe on the 3rd of July, you are filling some Kongs with peanut butter and putting them in your freezer. Maybe a few weeks before the 4th of July, you're talking to your veterinarian.
Maybe they suggest some calming chews, or if you know your dog's had issues in the past, maybe some sort of medication, but of course, that's a veterinarian discussion. But leaving special treats for the dog that's only for the 4th of July. Again, those frozen Kongs are a winner. You know, just things to keep them busy and keep their mind kind of off of, of those loud booms outside.
Timothy: Yeah, I've discovered I can't take Glacier to an Atlanta Braves, uh, ball game because they let [00:02:00] off fireworks during the game. Right. Every strikeout.
Leslie: Oh,
Alyssa: geez.
Timothy: And the loud noises, and I love my Atlanta Braves. So, um, I have to sit at home and listen
Alyssa: to it. Just again, another good reason to keep up on those white cane skills is you never know when there's gonna be a situation where it might just not be right to take your dog.
And fireworks and the, I guess Braves games. Or Braves? Yeah, Braves games.
Timothy: Yep, the Atlanta Braves. You're right.
Alyssa: The... I know. At least I didn't say Tigers, so. Um... Oh, gosh. But yeah, so there's definitely times. But, but something good to start thinking about, you know. I know we're, we're only a few days out here, but good things to plan for.
Leslie: I know. I remember, um, pets growing up.
Alyssa: Yeah.
Leslie: Neighbors' pets got out- ... during fireworks, and then it was terrifying 'cause- Yes ... they're just running. They're so scared. It- They don't know what to do. Another great
Alyssa: point.
Leslie: And it was like the whole neighborhood is out looking for these dogs. It was-
Alyssa: Absolutely. Keep-
very scary ... some identification on your dog. Mm-hmm. Especially on the 4th of July. I wanna say, and I don't have the statistics here, but that it is one of the bigger [00:03:00] days where, where pets, you know, escape or, or freak out and get out. So keep those IDs on them if your pet's not microchipped. Um, you know, I know all of our leader dogs are, but, but always something good to, to look at.
So, um, just some fun tips and tricks. But as we are talking about disability pride, there's so much to talk about, and today we would like to talk about some advocacy, access, and some of the people working behind the scenes to protect the rights of guide dog users.
Leslie: Yes. We are so excited to welcome two leaders in advocacy from The Seeing Eye, who are working to ensure guide dog handlers can confidently access public spaces, transportation, and housing to strengthen advocacy efforts for the future.
Dave Johnson is a longtime leader with The Seeing Eye, beginning his career as a kennel assistant and veterinary technician before transitioning into instruction training. Over the years, he has served as director of instruction and training, and now holds the role of director of advocacy and government relations.
Through these experiences, Dave brings decades of knowledge and a [00:04:00] deep commitment to supporting graduates while addressing real world access challenges. Also with us is Melissa Ullman. Melissa is an advocacy and government relations specialist with a strong background in law and social justice. She provides direct assistance to guide dog handlers who are experiencing access challenges, while also working on broader legislative advocacy and public education efforts.
Melissa holds degrees from Georgetown University, The Ohio State University, and Temple University, reflecting her deep expertise in both policy and advocacy work.
Timothy: Melissa and Dave, welcome to the podcast, and thank you for what you guys have done. And so can you tell a little bit more about yourself and how you got involved with Seeing Eye?
Dave: I have been with the Seeing Eye since doing an internship here, uh, in college, and I had to do, uh, work, working with animals, and I worked in the kennels at that time and, uh, [00:05:00] was hired back full-time after I graduated college and, uh, got involved in vet teching here wh- when, when times were really different.
We're going back over 40 years now. And yeah, we had part-time veterinarians that came in three days a week and did surgeries and saw animals and so on, and I got a really lot of experience hands-on. But I had always had a really, really, really strong interest in, in the mission and the instruction and training part of things, which is, you know, training, training the guides and training our, uh, our constituents, the people who we serve here.
And so after a couple years of, uh, uh, kennels and, and veterinary stuff, I got into instruction and training, and I was an instructor Oh, I guess about 14, 15 years, and, uh, became a training manager, and [00:06:00] eventually director of training, and I was director of training for close to 15 years. And I would say in my career here, it's probably been some of the greatest change that I've witnessed in the organization's history.
We're, we're coming up on 100 years, um, in, in '29, 2029. And, um, you know, there, there were lots of challenges in the early years of starting a, a school a- and so on, but there's been tremendous growth and change in the organization and, and, and the guide dog movement all together during my career here. It's just been an incredible ride.
I can't imagine spending, uh, a career anywhere else for, for myself.
Leslie: I love that, and I love to hear the passion in your voice and the history , and I'm j- I can't wait to dive into that a little bit more. Melissa, do you mind just sharing a little bit briefly about yourself?
Melissa: Yeah, sure. So, um, my journey's a little bit different.
I am, I [00:07:00] have, I'm, I'm totally blind. I have a little bit of light perception, and I've been blind since birth. I have Leber's congenital amaurosis. And for most of my life actually, I've been a cane traveler. And I, you know, what actually happened to get me, uh, acquainted with The Seeing Eye is that, um, my now ex-husband and I were at a dog park in Delaware, uh, playing with our pet dogs.
And I knew about The Seeing Eye. People had been asking me, uh, my entire life- ... wh- when I was gonna get one of those dogs, you know? And because it could tell me where to go. So that just- Exactly. That just tells you, you know, what people, what people well-meaningly are thinking, right? And it, and, and I was not ready.
I was still exploring my relationship to dogs in general. So we were at the dog park with our pet dogs, and we met a, a puppy raiser there, who knows who he is, and is, is someone that is, is a lovely person and, and really wanted us to become puppy [00:08:00] raisers for The Seeing Eye. And so eventually we did that.
And then fast-forward, I decided that I was really excited about what The Seeing Eye was doing, and that I wanted to kind of, um, increase my level of independence and at least start exploring working with a guide. And so then we moved to Chicago so that I could take a job. I was practicing law in Delaware at that time, and did so for about 10 years, but then we moved to Chicago, and I realized that now might be the time to explore that a lot more seriously because such a big world was opened up to me and, and, and challenges and opportunities where working with a dog would really be a really g- of great benefit.
So I applied to The Seeing Eye. I was matched with my first guide, Luna, in, uh, the beginning of 2017, and that was a game changer, a life changer. We came back to Chicago where I practiced law for another little [00:09:00] over a year, and then I was scrolling through my inbox and I saw this, I saw this job posting that was sent out to, to Seeing Eye graduates.
And I'd been talking to some friends about a possible career shift, and I'd been talking to them a little bit about what I wanted to do, and I said, "But that, that doesn't matter because that job doesn't exist." Except then it was in my inbox. So I decided to apply for the position of senior specialist of advocacy and government relations at The Seeing Eye.
I absolutely loved Chicago and would not have relocated for any other reason. And then, um, a little bit over eight years later, here I am doing the work that we're gonna talk more about today. And I'm now working with my second dog, Aspen, and we've been working together since January 1.
Leslie: Thank you. I always find it so interesting how people get into this profession and join guide dog [00:10:00] organizations because it is so unique, but what you can consistently hear is the passion- Mm-hmm
in people's voices, and you can tell that you love what you do. And as you said, right, you wouldn't have moved for any other position.
Melissa: Nope.
Leslie: That's fantastic. So can you guys tell us a little bit about the growth of your advocacy department at The Seeing Eye, and how you have really come to be a leader in that space?
Dave: Yeah. As I look back at the history of the organization, Morris Frank, one of our, one of our founders, the first person to come to the US with a guide, with a seeing eye dog, was really the first advocate here uh, in our country. And, you know, he had a conversation with Dorothy Harrison Eustis just before he left Switzerland to return to the United States with Buddy, and you know, th- this was, uh, a conversation where she said to him, "You know, Buddy's not gonna be use, any use to you if you can't go [00:11:00] anywhere."
And he was like, "What the heck are you talking about, go anywhere? I'm gonna go everywhere with this dog." And she said, "Well, nobody knows. You know, there's, there's nothing like this in the United States yet. There's, there's no access and, and so on, and you're gonna have to pave the way." So Morris came home, and, you know, part of her reason for choosing him out of the 200 people that wrote to her and, and asked for a, a seeing eye dog, she chose him, um, p- uh, because he promised that he would start a school in the US, and also his temperament was such that it, he-- The word to describe Morris was cantankerous, and he didn't like to take no for an answer.
And he had, he was known for, you know, forcing his way into places, but he was also a diplomat in some ways. And, uh, through Dorothy's philanthropy, uh, he was able to connect with, uh, politicians and, and people with [00:12:00] influence and affect the laws Uh, that protect, protected blind people with, with guides in the early days of the guide dog movement.
Um, fast-forward, here we are almost 100 years later, um, the world has changed a lot. Um, there are a lot of other different kinds of service dogs. There are certainly laws like the ADA and state laws that protect, um, service dog handlers, but there's also a lot of confusion out there now. Um, because of the plethora of jobs that dogs can do, there's a lot of legitimate stuff going on with dogs helping people, but then there are also the people who, who have, uh, really taken advantage of it and tried to pass their pets off as service animals just so that they can take some places.
There-- As we know, there's dogs flying that really aren't service dogs. Um, so we've been faced with all [00:13:00] these challenges. Um, it's sad to me, uh, that legitimate, uh, handlers have to fill out forms in order to fly because of the people who have, have faked it, you know, in the past and caused issues. Um, so there's, there's a lot going on, and our world has changed just, you know, rideshares changed everything, and that's a whole 'nother subject we can talk about but, but there's less taxi, there's more rideshare, and there's less understanding of, of who should be taking dogs where.
And so our job is very full, um, and it's pretty much starts with education, and we-- what we're learning is that, you know, nobody really knows. Nobody, uh, is very well-educated besides us on access laws. There's a lot of confusion out there. You wanna, you wanna hit your wagon to that, Melissa?
Melissa: Yeah, I wa- I wanna say something though about our department a little bit too- Yeah
[00:14:00] because, um, when I took this job, there was someone who had been... And they know who they are, too, but, like, they'd been working extremely hard doing advocacy work as a volunteer here at The Seeing Eye. And so there was a decision made that we really needed it to be a full-time job. Um, you know, but it, but they, they are the, they, this person is, is the reason why this foundation exists for that.
So, um, so my position was created, and then a few years ago it was decided that we really needed to have advocacy be its own department. So that's, that's when Dave became the director of advocacy and government relations. And really, I think the, the idea behind that was that we could have a stronger and louder and more, more effective voice if we, if we approached it that way.
And I think that that definitely has been the case, because we've been able to do a lot of work around, um, education [00:15:00] and legislative and policy work that I think is better if you have two brains on it, and, and a, and the, the optics of showing, right, that there is this level of commitment to advocacy at The Seeing Eye.
Alyssa: Absolutely. I mean, you truly do need to dedicate somebody's full-time job to this, 'cause like you said, there is a lot of work to be done. A lot of it starts with education, but there's so much more, too, that we can do. And I know you, you mentioned Dave, some of the issues with, you know, fake service animals, and those emotional support animals, and now also rideshares.
And so it sounds like, just like at Leader Dog, you know, you guys have so much going on with advocacy and accessibility. So what does a day-to-day kind of look like for you guys? I'm sure you're giving out, you know, um, references for, for different things that people can use, um, and resources, but, but what do you guys day to day?
What are some of the things you do?
Melissa: I would say that you can, you can describe a day-to-day, [00:16:00] but every day is a little bit different. Sure. So on an average day, I probably get several phone calls or emails or reach-outs from our graduates saying, "Hey, I, you know, I was denied four Ubers in a row yesterday, and I need to know what it is that I can do about this."
Sure. And then I can provide them with information and resources about, you know, how they can, how they can file a complaint within the app if they have not already done so. They can file a complaint with the Department of Justice so that we can continue to show them that this remains a systemic issue that's affecting an entire community.
Um, and then of course, one of the th... And then I might get a call, one of the great things is that despite the access barriers that we're encountering, we still get graduates who, and I think I get more and more of this, people who are calling with questions about international travel, right? Yeah. So where do I find information about the guidelines to travel to Italy or, um, you [00:17:00] know, what, what is that, that form that I have to do now when I come back to the US, the CDC form?
Um, so, so I, I get calls about, about those issues. The other, the other... Uh, I might get a call from someone saying, "My new landlord is demanding that I provide a letter from my doctor and all kinds of information." And then what I might tell them is, "We're in a difficult situation right now because some very valuable housing guidelines have been rescinded by HUD, so everybody's a little bit without a compass right now, but the law hasn't changed and the only thing they can do is ask you for what is absolutely necessary to evaluate your re- your accommodation request.
Here's what we can provide you." So, so those are the kinds of calls that I might get on a daily basis, and one of the things that I try to do is I try to listen, and then I try to ask people too, like, "What is it that you would like to see happen? What do you want out of this?" And, and what I often hear is, "Well, you know, I wanna [00:18:00] educate them because I don't want this to happen to anybody else."
So then I can direct them to our resources. We have a really pretty robust, and it continues to evolve, and we can continue to make it better, but we have our advocacy center which is our, our web content on a, a variety of advocacy topics, and that can be found at seeingeye.org/advocacy. And then another resource that we have is our Seeing Eye Advocacy app, and there's a link to that on that page, but what the Seeing Eye Advocacy app is, is...
And you can, you can find it by putting in Seeing Eye Advocacy or, um, into your Apple App Store or into your Android Google Play Store. And That is an app that is a reference resource of laws and tools and educational materials that are related [00:19:00] to service animals throughout the US and Canada. So we just had a, a recent major update of our app where we added some new features.
You can now favorite items that you want. You can now ... Our search function is more robust than it was. You can now go in there and directly report discrimination by reaching out to the appropriate state agency. So those are things that we have that we've, you know, that we've made available. So ... And then of course, the, the graduate calls are one thing, but another part of our day-to-day might be meeting with our lobbyists to discuss legislative efforts that we're engaging in in New Jersey, or going to testify in Trenton on pieces of legislation like we recently did, doing presentations on service animal related laws, right?
Outreach events, things like that. So, um, the da- And then sitting and reading really sad regu- depressing regulations and trying to figure out how to [00:20:00] make a public comment on them that's gonna be meaningful, meeting with industry partners, meeting with government officials who are, are seeking input from, from the, the blindness and other disability community.
So, um, so that's kinda what my day-to-day looks like.
Dave: It's not usually quiet, is it, Melissa?
Melissa: No. And it's not usually ... Every day isn't the same. Which is good.
Timothy: So Melissa, you mentioned that you get a lot of contacts from, uh, emails or phone calls. What are the m- uh, challenges, access challenges are you seeing most often from clients?
Melissa: I think right now, rideshare hands down. Yeah. I, I am, I am hearing, and it sounds like I'm hearing some consensus here- Mm-hmm ... from our hosts. You know, we hear about rideshare denials or discrimination of some kind more, I think, than we hear about anything else right now. So one of the ... And one of the, of course, the controversial issues right now, although some of that has died down, is around the self [00:21:00] ID features that both Uber and Lyft offer so that you can identify yourself as a person working with a service animal.
And people ask me all the time, "Should I be using these features?" And what I just try to explain is, "Look, this is, this is still voluntary. You can decide. The law does not require you to disclose ahead of time, but here might be some benefits to you to doing that." And I tell them that I've decided to use those features for my own specific reasons, but of course it's up to them.
So that, you know, the Uber and Lyft issues are what we hear about a lot. I'm also hearing a lot more about people encountering poorly behaved dogs in public places. And that's a challenge because there's a lot of mis- misinformation and a lack of education among both handlers, um, and among businesses and other entities about what a service animal really is, and what questions are allowed to be asked, and, and what tools you do have available to you.
So I would say that. And I ... And as this s- [00:22:00] as this housing space gets a little bit more uncertain, I think I'm getting more and more questions about housing.
Alyssa: Of course. And I know, you know, you did hear Leslie and I both agreeing with you. Yes, rideshares are definitely something that we hear a lot of. And I know that, uh, Leader Dog and The Seeing Eye and, and a bunch of other organizations have gone to different rallies and gone to different, you know, meetings about, for example, rideshares, but, but many other things.
So you guys partner and work with a lot of different guide dog organizations. I think that's one of the best things about our line of work is that we all get along really well. Um, it's not so much a competition as it is working together. So how do you think that the partnerships with other guide dog organizations such as Leader and, and all the other ones can help strengthen all of the advocacy efforts that we're all trying to, to accomplish here?
Melissa: I think the partnerships are important for a couple of reasons. And by the way, we are ... You know, we have a, a group that we've kind of formed recently that I think is giving us the opportunity to, to [00:23:00] really strengthen some of those partnerships. But we can't ... N- none of us, not one single one of us can do the advocacy work alone.
Timothy: Mm-hmm.
Melissa: It is not a one, one person job. It is not ... That's not how it is. So w- the ways that I think our partnerships are valuable is that we can work together on initiatives and efforts, but we can also talk to each other and brainstorm about, "Hey, what's working for you guys? What's not working for you guys?
What are you seeing? What, what are you doing about it? This is what, this is what we did." You know, one of ... Recently, we had a, a partner school tell us about a really great program that an airline has that would allow instructors to fly more easily with dogs in, in training that we were unaware of and that we were not part of.
But because this person kinda had an in with this program, now we know about it, and it's, it's very valuable to us to have that information. And, and, and that is [00:24:00] reciprocated. And the other thing too that we can do if we, if we're connected, is we can partner with each other on, on outreach and educational events and efforts.
So I, I think that's why those partnerships are so important. We're on the same team.
Dave: Yeah, there's definitely strength in numbers, and, uh, we can, we can make a, a more of a showing on issues if we hold hands together and, and, uh, and fight together. Absolutely, and we have
Leslie: loved being a part of those conversations with the other guide dog organizations and service dog organizations, right?
Not just the- Yes ... the guide dog work- Mm-hmm ... which is really important to have these collaborative meetings, and we're talking about resources and what everybody's doing. But I think collectively we'll certainly make a larger impact. Some of the things too that you guys do that, you know, I mean, you ... First of all, thank you for sharing all those lovely resources.
We are obsessed with your resources. Yes. I love your app. We often refer our clients- Good ... to your app and your, your advocacy page because you have such fantastic things there, [00:25:00] so thank you for doing that, um, and keeping that updated. It's, it's a huge resource to everybody. What are you guys thinking, um, you know, any big next plans for initiatives or things?
I know you guys have done a ton of research, and you've done surveys, and we've participated in those as well, but anything on the horizon?
Dave: Our current status is working on a bill in New Jersey to- Mm ... that would require education for, uh, people who run businesses in New Jersey to educate their staff about service dog laws.
And, uh, it's made it through the Senate. We've testified twice. Wow. And, uh, next is on its way, uh, to the Assembly to, to ... And, and we'd like to get that passed. But m- it's funny, you know, New Jersey, the home of the oldest guide dog school in the world, does not have a, a law that makes it a criminal offense to d- deny access.
And, uh, there's not an [00:26:00] appetite within our lawmakers right now to, to, to do that, but we haven't given up. Um, but 35 other states or so have laws that make it a criminal offense to deny access, which means the police have to come or are supposed to come, um, and react to a, to a, a denial of access, and that's not the case in New Jersey.
Someone would have to sue the entity that was denying them. Um, and that doesn't make it very easy for, for our handlers in New Jersey, and, and we have a fair amount here in our own home state.
Leslie: Absolutely.
Melissa: It all starts with education. And we have not given up on the criminal penalties. Uh, a- and of course, we don't want people to go to jail, we just want them to, to recognize that they're breaking the law when they do that.
But- Yeah ... um, but at the, but at the moment, our focus is on really, uh, education because that really is the foundation. So if businesses are required to have their employees undertake a training so that [00:27:00] they know what the laws are around service animals, I think that's a really important start. We can, we can be part of those efforts where we're needed, and, um, and I think that we can really raise awareness i- with this legislation, and hopefully, you know, hopefully it will pass the Senate.
We, we ... It's made it through two committees, now it just needs to go through a floor vote, and then we need to get the Assembly Bill, and we need to m- get it through the Assembly, as Dave said. So, uh, we'll see. But one of the things that we have to remember with legislation is that we kinda have to take the long view.
And I, and I know that because of efforts that we've engaged in with
For the dog interference bill in Montana to get passed. We were really excited when Maryland became the second state to, uh, allow people with retired guides to keep their dogs in housing. And of course, we've got efforts going on in West Virginia, which is the [00:28:00] only other state that does not have a law that protects service animals from harm from other dogs or, or people.
And those that, you know, that they're, they're still working on it. We're gonna be there to provide them with written testimony when they do it again next session and, and try to get it through. But we recognize both at the federal and state levels that with legislative efforts, you can't just give up after one session if your bill doesn't make it.
You just have to keep trying, keep thinking about why didn't it pass this time? What can we do better next time? How can we strengthen and amend the language to give us a better shot at getting this through? And if we don't like the final outcome as much as we hoped, then what can we do down the line to strengthen the legislation?
Timothy: So what advice would you give somebody who's maybe a little bit nervous for the first time to be an advocate for themselves? I found out that once you do it the first time, it gets easier. So what advice would you give somebody?
Melissa: All right, so the biggest advice I would give them, and it's advice, and it's something I'm still working on though, so I [00:29:00] wanna make sure that I put that out there and, and, and, and that I'm authentic about that, is to stay as calm as you can.
Because the more... You know, as you're encountering an access issue, the more worked up you get, and, and we do have to be firm, we've gotta stand our ground, but the calmer you can be, the less likely you are to allow someone to take your power away as you're, you are trying to impart important information.
That gets harder as the barrier gets bigger, or you've been denied more Ubers in, you know, a 20-minute period, 20, 25-minute, 30-minute, 45-minute period, and you're getting hot, or it's raining, or you absolutely need to access this place and you're being told you can't. That's why I'm saying I'm, I'm still working on this, but I think staying calm is very important.
And the other thing that you can do before you're in the situation is equip yourself, right? If you're traveling to a state that you've never [00:30:00] been to before, look up the laws in your state in our app so that you at least know what they are. If, if it's a place where you live, educate yourself about it so that you know what your options are.
If you're calling the police in a state, in one of the 14 or 15 states where it's not a criminal offense to deny access, know that if you still are gonna call them, because know that they might say, "We're not actually gonna come because we don't have to come." So, so that's what I would say is equip yourself ahead of time with the best information you can, and do your very best to stay calm.
And when if, if there's a time when you haven't done those things or aren't able to do those things, just give yourself a little bit of grace and, and, and do it next time
Alyssa: Yeah. I, I, the staying calm thing I know would be not easy for myself. So definitely something for those that feel they need to work on it to do that.
And I'll keep working on it with them. Yeah. Yes, please. We're all in it together. We're all in this together. Absolutely.
Dave: You know, I have to [00:31:00] say, though, even staying calm, we've, we've witnessed some filmed events with some denials, uh, with some of our grads that were pretty heinous.
Alyssa: Mm.
Dave: And they stayed calm and filmed the whole thing-
Alyssa: Mm-hmm
Dave: and they still didn't win.
Alyssa: Wow. Yeah.
Dave: So, so and, and we don't know how it would go even if they escalated it and got angry and, and emotional. But, um, it, it's just, you know, you see some discouraging stuff- Sure ... out there.
Melissa: But you've gotta decide how you're gonna define a win, right? Yeah. What is a win? A win could be you didn't get in, um, but you raised awareness.
You, you know, you didn't get arrested because you lost it on the person. I, you know. Yeah. So it, it gets... It's, Dave's right. It can be extremely discouraging. Um, but I think if you can be the person that is still behaving like the bigger person, at least I think you have a better chance at raising awareness.
And I, and I have not always been successful at remaining the b- I, I, I... [00:32:00] I'm being honest. It's so hard and it's so important.
Alyssa: Yeah.
Timothy: I know sometimes when I'm out and if we have an issue with trying to get Glacier, like, into a restaurant, I have to calm Cheryl down. So I always tell her, "I've got this. Let me handle this."
Alyssa: Yeah. Yeah.
Timothy: I'm the one that uses the dog, not you, so I'll handle this- Yeah ... 'cause I'm a little bit calmer than she is.
Dave: The emotion of family members, you know, or, or friends who are with you who often jump in 'cause they're so angered when they know better to get involved in these situations. We see it all the time.
Timothy: Yeah.
Melissa: Or there are times when they don't jump in, or they don't understand why it's so important to you to have this access, uh, and it, and it... Or they don't wanna deal with it, and it, it becomes a challenge to navigate those situations. And I think that, um, I think that having allies is so valuable and so important, and knowing that, that there will be people there who can either, they can be witnesses when there's a rideshare denial.
They can speak up for you when you need [00:33:00] or want them to do, with you, not for you- Mm-hmm ... but with you, uh, when you need them or want them to. But I think allyship is extremely valuable. There have been situations that I've gone into where I thought there could be an access denial here, but I have people with me who will stand with me and support me- Yeah
and have my back. And times when I'm experiencing something, and there isn't anyone else there, I just, I have to keep reminding myself, yeah, this is happening, but I'm not the only person this has happened to today- Yeah ... uh, uh, in our community. Guarantee it. Sure. And we're not alone. So I think to be a good ally, I think what you can do is ask the person, you know, who the, the person who is working with the dog, you know, "What is it that you need from me or don't need from me?"
Uh, it can be, it can be pretty maddening when there's an access issue, and they look at your, the person that's with you and say, "I don't... No dogs in here," instead of... and then just taking you out of that conversation. So it's, it's about the openness [00:34:00] of having that conversation ahead of time, if you can, or communicating in the situation about what what you need and what you want, and what, what kind of ally they're prepared to be.
Alyssa: Yeah, it really is a, a team effort. And Melissa and Dave, you guys are doing, you know, so inc- such incredible work kind of leading this and helping lead this team towards that advocacy and accessibility. And, and we thank you guys so much for, for joining us today. Thank you so much for
Dave: this opportunity.
This has been great. Well, thanks for
Alyssa: having us. Absolutely. And, and thank you to everybody for listening to the Taking the Lead podcast. I'm Alyssa Otis with hosts Timothy Cugno and Leslie Hoskins. We hope you enjoyed learning about Dave and Melissa, and all of the incredible work that they are doing in the advocacy space.
Please join us next time as we continue to dive into the world of blindness.
Leslie: And if you'd like to learn more about applying to Leader Dog, you can head to leaderdog.org, or call us at 888-777-5332. [00:35:00] Don't forget, you can reach us at takingthelead@leaderdog.org with any questions or ideas. If you liked today's podcast, make sure to hit subscribe and check us out wherever podcasts stream.