Christina: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Taking the Lead podcast where we empower people to be unstoppable. I'm Christina Hepner with my co-host Leslie Hoskins and Tim Kno. So we have not talked about this yet, but recently we turned in Future Leader Dog Graham. And I know we had a whole podcast on him with two other of his fundraisers and it, I cannot believe how fast the.
Over a year. Flew by. Yeah. With him. Yeah. How are you doing? How are you holding up? I'm, I'm okay. Yeah. Because
Timothy: you having withdrawals.
Christina: I went into it with the mindset of this is not my dog. Mm-hmm. And I think you really have to go into it with that mindset. Not that I am going to raise a dog and I get a puppy at home for, you have to go into it with the mindset of I am doing this for somebody else.
Mm-hmm. Uh, like. Adopting fostering [00:01:00] essentially is what you kind of do for that year. Teach it essential, uh, things like SIT and all those basic obedience training. And so I went into it with that mindset. Obviously it's still hard. Mm-hmm. Saying goodbye to a dog that you've seen go from being a puppy, have its little teenager phase.
'cause I will say he had that to. At the end of it, he was such a wonderful dog and going out on outings with him and seeing him behave so well, it's. It makes you feel so proud of what you did as a group. And I know Graham's other raisers, uh, would say the same thing. And it's difficult. You, you cry and, uh, but you know that the dog is going to choose the best life for him and you hope that it's with a client and he becomes a guide.
And then the hope is if he does, we get to [00:02:00] meet that person, uh, that he's paired with. So. It's a great experience.
Timothy: So the big question is, would you do it again?
Christina: Yes, just not at this time in my life because as you both know, I get married very soon and there's a lot of things happening, but I think you really have to do it at a time in your life that's good for you.
And I loved the co raising experience. I think it's so good for people who have busy life, who's working full time, who may not be able to take the dog and to work with them or wherever they may be going. And so it having those. Fundraisers and sharing that responsibility with somebody else was really cool, and it really helps you build.
Teamwork and responsibility and all of that. So it was just a really great experience doing it with my marketing team members.
Leslie: Yeah. And so many people talk about, right? I could never, when I could never, I could never puppy race 'cause I could never give the dog back up. But like you're saying, you went into it with that mindset of I am [00:03:00] doing, I'm volunteering, right?
Yeah. I'm giving my time, I'm giving my dedication, I'm giving my love and support to this dog. That I know at the end is hopefully going to be a guide dog for somebody else. Yeah. So having that mindset on the front end is really great. And one of the best things I've always heard volunteers or puppy raisers say when they talk about I could never, is that it's not what you're giving up, but what you're giving and thinking about the life that you might be giving of independence to somebody is huge.
Um, and it's such an important part of our organization. We couldn't do what we do without puppy raisers like you and your go raisers. So, absolutely,
and
Christina: I'm always. Bringing dogs home, which is also we need to address at some point. We definitely need to talk about that. Um, so my fiance, almost husband, uh.
Does not enjoy it as much as I do. 'cause he gets really attached and sad. But, uh, I've brought home so many dogs, whether it be for a week, 'cause they needed a home before they went somewhere or that sort of stuff. So I was [00:04:00] used to it. Uh, obviously it's still hard. You still cry, you still, it's like, it's like your kid going to college.
I can't, you know, Leslie's gonna start crying now. My mind's not there yet. Yeah. So we're gonna, so you're seeing them go on too? A life that they choose. Absolutely. And whatever career path that is for them, whether it's a career to be a guide or a different career, 'cause we career change to different careers as well.
Or if he just wants a career change to be a pet. But I will not be the one that's adopting him so.
Leslie: Well, thank you for giving us Yes. A little bit of an update and we will look forward to future updates about Graham. Yes. I'm not gonna,
Christina: anything else?
Leslie: Just
Christina: about the experience.
Leslie: Yes. Well thank you to you and your fundraisers, and honestly to all puppy raisers for the the time and dedication and to help us provide.
Beautiful Leader Dogs to all of our wonderful clients. Yes, it's fantastic. But today we've got other things to talk about. Today our guest has a big role with Leader Dog that is only gonna get [00:05:00] better with time.
Christina: Yes. Veil Ryn is a guide dog client who is working with her third leader dog Louie. She first came to Leader in 2005 and she serves as the secretary on the leader dog board.
Timothy: Hello, Ry, welcome to the podcast. I met you last November, so it's great that you're on here. Welcome. So tell the audience a little bit about yourself.
Avril: So, um, guess I will start out. I, I'm Canadian. I was born in London, Ontario, or that's where I live now in London, Ontario. Um, Canada, I have had a number of things that I've done over the years, so, um, oh, I should say I am, I am visually impaired, clearly, if I have a guide dog, I started out, I think I wanted to be a social worker and I was taking a.
History degree. And then that did not end very well for me. And I waited 17 years before I went back to university and finished my degree. And by then I had decided I wanted to be, um, a psychotherapist. So I ended up getting a master's degree in, um, [00:06:00] counseling psychology, and I'm now a working psychotherapist.
Um, before that though, I worked in a lot of things related to helping people with visual impairments and other disabilities. Um. Prepare for and, and be employed. So, um, spent a lot of time teaching computers to people back in the, in the early days of computers, um, when people didn't have computers at home and.
The world was learning to use computers, but a lot of times people with disabilities didn't have the opportunity to learn, um, in groups that worked for them. So I did a lot of computer teaching, probably taught hundreds of people in the kind of late nineties, early two thousands, and then I kind of became a specialist and assistive technology and after that I moved on to more of an IT role and which kind of led.
Although it really didn't actually to my role, somehow I changed to, uh, becoming a psychotherapist. And it's really interesting. One of the things I always say to people is the differences in it is things [00:07:00] are either working or they're not. And in counseling. It's a lot more gray.
Leslie: Hmm. I think that's a great way to put it.
It's so interesting how you start out your life or your journey in one direction. You think you're gonna do something and then all of a sudden there's a twist, there's a turn, and you never really know where you're gonna end up. Yeah. But it sounds like you're in the right spot now. So do you enjoy your work that you're currently doing?
Avril: I love what I'm doing. I always say, so I'm. I'm rather old. I was born in the sixties, so I always say to people I'm having, Hey, right. I always say to people that like, I feel like I'm. I feel like the wisdom of the ages has really been some, I, I enjoy my life so much more now than I, than I did when I was a lot younger.
And so I meet a lot of young people who think they're in their thirties and they're kind of, you know, it's over for me, right? Nothing good can happen now. And I tell them, you know, like, if, you know, statistics are any indication, you've got about 50 years left of your life. So, and there's all kinds of things you can do at that time.
Yeah, [00:08:00]
Leslie: that is some great advice. I hope this isn't as good. I know. I mean, not that my life isn't fantastic, but yeah, I'm looking forward to those later years and all the things that come with it. That's funny. Well, we're glad that you're here with us today and sharing your experience. I'd love to hear a little bit more about your journey, specifically with Leader Dog and how you even found Leader Dog.
Avril: So at some point in 2002 or 2003, I, maybe a bit later than that actually, 'cause I came to Leader Dog in 2005. I, um, decided I wanted to get a guide dog. I had been visually impaired my entire life. I was born with cataracts on my eyes in the sixties. And when that happened, at that time, they first of all did not know.
That the babies were visually impaired and so the critical period for Vision Brain Connection did not develop. And then the process of dealing with that was. A surgery that involved just cutting the lenses of your eyes. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So it's got a [00:09:00] name. You can, if you have no lenses, you have a fia it's called.
And lots of people with congenital cataracts don't have lenses. They, they have a fia and then you have other kinds of things too. So I got around when I was a lot younger. Of course I was one of those people who's super, um, conscientious. So I spent a lot of years not using a cane, which made me have a lot of unfortunate encounters that.
Luckily didn't end in too much pain or injury. And then at some point I realized I needed to start using a cane. So I did that. And then I thought, well, if I'm using a cane, I should get a guide dog. And then I had all these rules about, um, I had to have the right a job where I could make enough money to support the dog.
I always felt like a guide dog was something I had to aspire to, and so I didn't. I got my first guide dog in 2005 when I turned 39, and that was also the year that I went back to school and I bought my first house. And, um, I thought, okay, I can, I'm, I'm gonna be able to have a dog now. And so then I started looking at the different guide dog schools and I had criteria, had a whole like checklist thing that I did, and at that [00:10:00] time.
P places sort of had stuff on the internet, but a lot of it was you would call them and they'd send you packages. Yeah.
Christina: Oh, wow.
Avril: And the things I remember, if I remember correctly, the things I cared about were, um, that you got to own the dog as soon as you left the organization. That you had a, that they were private rooms.
That there was internet in the room. Because my, at that point the, um, training was 28 days and my employer wasn't thrilled Yeah. Of me being gone that long. So she expected me to work a little bit, and the last criteria was I wanted a German Shepherd. So Leader Dog checked all those boxes. Plus the climate was very similar to where I lived.
I chose. To come in the winter so that I would, 'cause that was the most challenging season for me and I wanted to learn to work with the dog in the winter when, you know, it was snowy and lots of travel challenges. Yeah. So I applied to Leader Dog and I, I think I knew in April or May that I was coming for the November, December class that year.
Christina: [00:11:00] Wow.
Leslie: Gosh, that's so different than how it works now. Yeah. Right. And that doesn't seem like it was that long ago. I mean, 20 years I guess. So much changes. That's really interesting. And so that you had your first leader dog. How long did you work with that dog?
Avril: I had my first dog for five and a half years.
He had been a, a return dog. Oh, he was almost three. He was almost three and a half I think when I got him. And he unfortunately passed away just before he turned eight. Hmm.
Leslie: That's why I, so sorry. Yeah. And so how long of a, a break did you take him between getting a new guide dog? That's always a very unique journey that people go through.
Avril: So interestingly, I remember thinking I would never have it when he, I knew he wasn't well for about a month, and I was thinking probably wasn't gonna end well for him and. And it ended up not, and I remember thinking, I'm not gonna get another one. And I remember, I believe he was euthanized on Saturday and I was filling out the application on Sunday.
Christina: Wow. Wow. That was fast.
Avril: It was.
Christina: And so [00:12:00] what was that process like to go from your first dog to your second dog?
Avril: Although they were both German Shepherds, they were completely opposite personality types. My first guy was very. Aggressive and out there and pushy and confident. And my next one was a bit quieter and more cautious.
But I mean, I loved him for all of his great characteristics too. Yeah. And he was a spectacular guide.
Christina: And now that we don't have German Shepherds and we have labs and Golden Crosses, why do you still come to Leader Dog?
Avril: Well, you know, that's a good question. I guess because I feel. A great deal of gratitude to Leader Dog.
Um, I've gotten to do, being on Leader Dog's Board of Trustees has been a, a thrilling life experience for me. I've learned so much. I've met so many wonderful people. There certainly was a time when I heard the German Shepherds were off the table, that I thought about one of the other schools that does train them.
But it, it really wasn't a decision, like I wasn't gonna not be part of Leader Dog anymore.
Christina: Yeah. And so what is your [00:13:00] current dog?
Avril: My current dog is a Labrador retriever named Louie. He is yellow in color.
Christina: And so what's it like having going from German Shepherds to a Labrador retriever?
Avril: I feel that I made a lot of mistakes and I was not prepared.
One of my best Louie stories is not that long after I had him, I was cleaning up my office and I threw a bunch of stuff in the non-covered garbage can and when I came back he was just finishing up eating a DVD.
Christina: Oh no, no.
Avril: He just crunched it right down. Um. Yeah. So the friendliness, like the German shepherds are more attached to one person and they, yeah, they, they, when they stare at people, it's usually not in a friendly way.
It's either indifference or maybe a little bit. People might perceive it as aggression, but they're not that interested in other people. Um, one of the things I think is funny if, if kibble fell on the floor. I was vacuuming it up, right? No, German Shepherd was eating kibble off the floor. Louis just comes [00:14:00] running any food.
Yes. I had also not heard that dogs would lick the dishes, the dirty dishes in the dishwasher. Ugh. This was a new one on me that clearly Lou had maybe been allowed to do that. 'cause he knew all about what the dishwasher was.
Leslie: That's so funny. So it's kind of like being a first time guide dog users again, right?
You need like a whole new manual. Oh yeah. No,
Avril: I. I wasn't fully prepared for what he was. And I, and I did the flex training. So I was here for a week and then I went home with the dog and, and a trainer for a week. Mm-hmm. And I think I need, I needed longer. I should have, I should have stayed longer. Just learned to live with a lab though, though, to be clear, he's a good worker, right?
He's, he's really tough. He's, he's great in every situation. He's not. He's not con in constant threat assessment mode, which is a thing a lot of times German Shepherds are scanning the environment to see what could go wrong. But Louis just thinks everything's always gonna be good.
Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Very positive.
Timothy: So April, you, [00:15:00] you live in Canada, so I do. Are the guide dog rules there differently and how's it? The Travel with a guide dog in, in Canada is at different rules,
Avril: so here in the us um. It's federally regulated, but in Canada it's provincially regulated. So we have provinces that are counterparts of your states.
And so the province of Ontario, where I live, has a law. Um, but it is very open to interpretation, let's say. And so it's like here, there's a lot of dogs being passed off as service dogs that really don't have a lot of, um, let's say tasks that they perform other than to be present. Um, there's also a lot of.
The same kinds of things happen here, right? Like the ride share denials. So pretty much the same things that happen to Americans will happen to Canadians, but you have a bit more recourse because I think with the Department of Justice behind you, like we don't really have a mechanism. They say they do, but really nothing [00:16:00] bad can happen to people.
Although I will say Ontario does have a second law called the Blind Person's Rights Act, and you can actually have. If you're denied service, you can have a business or an individual charged and they could be fined up to think $10,000. Now this is rare. Um, but it's, yeah, that's an, that's another tool we have.
So it's pretty, like most of the kinds of things that Americans are facing, Canadian guide dog handlers would also face. Have you yourself experienced any ride share denials? So I don't travel too much, and when I do, I tend to, I tend to organize everything ahead of time. I'm not an Uber user. Okay. And right now I have, um, an account with, um, a, a kind of a, a little bit of a higher end taxi service, which actually isn't that much more expensive.
Mm-hmm. But the drivers are very aware of the [00:17:00] legalities and I've never had a problem with them. But I've certainly had problems with almost everywhere you go now, it seems like it's much more pervasive that you're challenged and asked. And there's a lot of misconceptions out there. Like it can't be a service dog because it's not wearing a vest and so on.
Yeah. Um, and the like, so it's, it's very similar to what guy dog handlers here would be facing.
Leslie: Absolutely and so frustrating. It's just how can we continue to advocate and educate the public on service animals? I know we do lots of different presentations and we have different flyers and things like that, but the more we can do here in the US and also in Canada to really help advocate for service animals, specifically guide dogs in our situation, um, the better.
Christina: Yeah, especially with everybody. Wanting to take their emotional support animals everywhere, and there's different laws and all of that. And so I think we have a great flyer that explains the differences and all of that. So I think it's so important for [00:18:00] people and businesses to know as well.
Leslie: Yeah, the difference between service animal, uh, emotional support, animal and therapy dogs.
There's lots of different categories that, uh, animals can fall into these days and they all have different rules of what they can and cannot get away with. Interesting. So we do wanna talk about though the, the most important thing really here, and actually all of it is really important. So we've learned a little bit about your specific history with Leader Dog and, and traveling in Canada.
Now you are a member of the Leader Dog Executive Board. How long have you been on the board?
Avril: I joined the Leader Dog Board of Trustees in 2006, and I had no idea when I left here in 2005, I remember getting my picture taken with the dog in front of the lion statue like ever lake. Everyone's tradition is, and I remember saying to the dog like, you won't take a look around, buddy.
You won't be back. And then in 2006 they invited me to join the board. And at that time. Leader Dog was doing a program called Work Counts, and it was a computer [00:19:00] training program to help people learn skills and then get jobs. And at that time that's exactly what I was doing. That's what my work was. So I, I think they originally asked me because I had experienced doing that and then, uh, that program for reasons I.
Totally clear on, just didn't, kind of, didn't last very long. And then, um, I just stayed on the board and then I went, you're only allowed to be on for 12 years and then you go off. And so I went off in 2018 and I did not expect to be back, but I was very privileged to be invited back again in, in 2019. And so, um, yeah, now I am the secretary.
Leslie: And not only the secretary, but you are in line to be the first female international chair who is blind or low vision. What does that mean to you? That's a big deal.
Avril: Yeah. I, I mean, I feel super honored to have been asked. I, like I said before, leader Dog, I've got, I've gotten so [00:20:00] much from being not even just a guy dog handler, like meeting.
So many wonderful people, the staff and volunteers who work here. I am deeply privileged to be part of this and I would, I'm really excited about what the future holds for me on the board, and I hope that I can, you know, do whatever position I end up having justice. 'cause I really want to be as valuable and helpful as I can to Leader Dog.
I, I learned so much about myself and about other people and about the world and about the giving warm nature of the humans that I've met. I just feel. Extremely privileged to be in the place that I am.
Timothy: Well, congratulations. Being back on the board. So why is it important for you to be on the board? How does it make you feel about yourself and what your role with Leader Dog is now?
Avril: Well, when you're on the board, you have the opportunity to have some influence in terms of the direction things go in. It's been really exciting to be. On the board as Melissa Weiss has taken over, um, being in charge here at Leader Dog and there's just a lot of really [00:21:00] positive, exciting energy here right now.
And, um, I feel really excited to be part of that because I think that we, I can be. A real leader in a number of things, like Leader Dog was, I believe the first guide dog school to have an orientation and mobility program. And to me, although the Guide Dog program is really exciting, um, that o and m program is probably the, in my mind, the more life changing for people because you end up there when you, you know, probably are thinking you might not, you know, like life has changed for you and you might not be able to do some of the things you did.
And I think o and m gives people back that confidence and those skills. So, yeah, so it's just really awesome to be here and to be part of the organization when all these really cool changes are happening because the industry is at arguably a bit of an inflection point too. Like they're, in my mind some existential concerns that we have in terms of, um, dogs in the environment [00:22:00] and.
Challenges that we have with like the ride share denials and things like that. And, um, positive training hasn't been around that long and so we're still, a lot of us are still learning how to, how to manage in that new environment with the dogs. So it's, it's kind of cool. And Leader Dogs also kind of embarking on this process of, um, kind of working with the whole person, like helping people get some other types of skills that they might need.
And it's really, it's really cool to see the direction that the organization is going in.
Christina: And how do you bring the voice of the clients into those board level decisions?
Avril: I like to think that pretty much anything that I contribute comes from a client perspective, right? Like I, and I feel like I have some, had some pretty good experiences that, that help me, um, be able to, to translate some of that for people.
Because I think a lot of times when people join, when you join any, any board, right? Like I've volunteered on other boards as well, you maybe don't know as much about. The client base or what the organization does or what it's like [00:23:00] to be those people. And so I feel like I kind of bring that and I bring that, you know, to some of the decisions the board makes, but also my fellow board members, they know me and they see me in the world working with my dog.
Whereas maybe they don't when, you know, they're on campus for meetings every few months, but maybe they don't actually ever see anyone working with a dog. But they see me with mine and they, their chances for them to get to know me and to understand what it's like. 'cause I think. Having a guide dog is, is almost like a lifestyle choice.
Um, because once you've got that dog, you have to be always thinking about it too. And so I think understanding like why people come and the kind, the reasons why it's important for them to have a guide dog, I can really bring information about that.
Christina: Yeah, that's super important. And whether they wanna guide dog or just wanna come for, uh, OM White Cane Dream or our white cane program as well,
Leslie: it's a really exciting time, right, to think about.
We've got the alumni board happening, so we have, you know, 12 clients [00:24:00] who are on the alumni board bringing that perspective. And we have several. Members on the executive board who are also blind or low vision, knowing that you're going to hopefully step into that line of chair of the executive board.
It's just, it seems like it's all working the way it should have been for probably many, many, many years. But we're getting to that point where, or truly the voice of the client is at the center of everything that we are doing. I think it's a really exciting time.
Avril: I think it really is an exciting time and it's really interesting to see how.
Leader Dog is meeting the challenges because there are a, a lot of challenges out there for being a guide dog handler right now, and I'm really interested in how, um, leader Dog is. Embracing the fact that we need to make some of these changes and do some of the things differently than we did before. So it's, it's pretty cool to see the, the dynamic nature of things and how they're evolving.
Leslie: Absolutely. And as we're kind of wrapping up here, Avery, do you have any advice for anybody who's just wanting to get a little bit more involved, whether it be at the local level or with an [00:25:00] organization, anything that you would suggest to somebody?
Avril: I guess what I would suggest to people is not, not to think about your visual impairment as.
A huge barrier. It's certainly gonna make mean that you do things differently, but there are just so many causes out there, and it doesn't even have to be a blindness related one, right? Like there's just so many things out there people can get involved in. So I am really big on encouraging people to pick something hard to do and to try to do it.
I think of, and this is maybe more the therapist in me coming out, but a lot of people think that the goal is. Or the, the end point is the goal. But really the goal should be the journey and the place where you're gonna have the most fun and learn the most, and feel the most vital and involved is during the journey.
And probably this journey of making, you know, the world more accommodating for guide dogs or being able to to be in the world with the guide dogs. It's probably a never ending kind of process, so I would highly encourage people to. Do whatever you can to be involved in your community and your world and, and make a difference.
[00:26:00] And, and honestly, people are probably, you're probably gonna make more of a distance difference at your local level than you will in a larger level. So just to try to make your, you know, advocating to your own. Community for things that you need. Maybe you can't change a law in your state or your province, but you might be able to change one in your municipality or your city.
So get out there and just be as involved as you can be and do things in person. Be out there with other humans and just have a good time. I like that.
Leslie: Well, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your history with Leader Dog and, and hope. Play the goals of the future. Thank you so much for having me, and thank you so much to our listeners for listening to the Taking the Lead podcast.
I'm Leslie Hoskins with host Timothy Kyo and Christina Hoener. We hope you enjoyed hearing about Avril and her current and future roles with leader. Please continue to join us as we dive into the world of blindness.
Christina: If you'd like to learn more about applying tour free services at Leader Dog, you can head to Leader Dog.
Dot org or call us at [00:27:00] (888) 777-5332. Don't forget you can reach us at taking the lead@leaderdog.org with any questions or ideas. If you like today's podcast, make sure to hit subscribe and check us out wherever podcast Stream.