Christina: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Taking the Lead podcast where we empower people to be unstoppable. I'm Christina Hepner with my co-host Leslie Haskins and Timothy k. Timothy, you have been traveling so much.
Timothy: Yes. I just got back from the, uh, El Paso five Points dinner in a dark last Saturday night, and boy did we have a big crowd and we had a blast.
We raised a lot of money for Leader Dog and the community. Boy, those, those people are very lively down in El Paso and the food was amazing. I'm still stuffed .
Christina: Ooh. What did you have? Look, I'm all interested
Timothy: in food. I went to this place called Hallelujah Barbecue. Oh. It was the best barbecue I've ever had in my life.
And the Mexican food, of course, 'cause you're right there by the border, was fresh and just, just off the chain,
Christina: off the chain.
Timothy: Yeah, about The only difficult thing I had is, uh, El Paso was in the middle of a desert, so [00:01:00] glacier had no grass.
Leslie: Mm. So
Timothy: we had like lava rocks. And
Leslie: so how did that work? Did she accommodate?
Timothy: Yeah, it acom, she accommodated, but it took, instead of five minutes, it took 30 minutes. Aw,
Christina: that's
Timothy: rough. And it was, it was rougher.
Literally rough for her. , . And, uh, we had to go a lot of places and finally she just gave up. Gave it up, and then she did her stuff. Yeah. So I guess every guide dog doesn't know where, what situation you're gonna be in, so I. Sometimes, usually I call beforehand, but I didn't this time. Yeah. So I would've known already, but uh, just be prepared for anything.
Leslie: That's a really good point. You put glacier in some unique situations. She's all over the place traveling. So good for her though, and good for you guys sticking it out together and, and making it happen.
Timothy: Yeah. I don't think we've ever been in a situation where she didn't, it just took longer. Yeah. I mean, she does mul grass now.
Gravel and wood [00:02:00] shavings. That's been done by like two by fours. I mean, just every situation she's done it. But I'm thankful for that.
Leslie: That's wonderful. And then you, you had an adventure at the airport too. You ran into somebody right.
Timothy: Oh yeah. Running into Audrey and Delta. I said, I told them hello that we, I was just standing there and she'd come up to me and she goes, uh, where'd you get your dog at?
And . I said, I got mine from, she goes, are you Timothy coo? I go, yes. And then here we go.
Christina: That's awesome. We both had,
Timothy: you're both headed to Dallas, so when that's,
Christina: and
Timothy: it was great to see Audrey and Delta. Delta's a pretty uh, uh, golden retriever. Yeah.
Christina: Yeah. Were you on a Delta flight?
Timothy: No, we were, we were on Southwest.
Oh, okay. So, uh, Delta used Southwest this past weekend. Okay. So yeah, I thought that was funny. I said something, somebody last night about that,
Christina: that was such a terrible joke. I'm sorry. Well listen, which
Leslie: off the chain And now the Delta joke. This is a rough start today guys. Leslie
Christina: just rolled her eyes at me.
For anyone who's wondering , [00:03:00] she always rolls her eyes at you. I know. Listen,
Leslie: I gotta keep you two in line. Well, that's awesome. It sounds like it was a very Wait. Wait a minute. Now listen, Timothy sh , keep our secret.
Christina: All right. I think we need to get into, we do our podcast today.
Leslie: Well, I'm glad you had a good trip though, Timothy, it sounds like it was, uh, definitely worth the voyage.
Timothy: It was fantastic and I appreciate the good hosts in there at Five Points Lines Club.
Leslie: That's wonderful, and thank you for continuing to go and represent Leader Dog. It's amazing the work that you are doing, and you and Glacier keep getting into some different situations, but you keep coming out ahead, so that's wonderful.
Timothy: Yep. Thank you.
Leslie: Absolutely. All right, well, today's guest is somebody we have spoken about quite regularly on this podcast, and now we are so delighted that she is joining us as a guest.
Christina: Yes. Today we're joined by Dr. Gail McCree, a theologist whose journey has taken her across continents in pursuit of advancing [00:04:00] canine reproduction science.
After falling in love with Australia during the study abroad semester, she returned to complete her veterinary degree at the University of Sydney. Now, back in the states, Dr. McCray dedicated herself to reproductive medicine, eventually securing the prestigious A KC. CHF sponsored residency at the Ohio State University.
There she completed groundbreaking research on female canine infertility while earning her master's degree and achieving board certification as a theologist. And that's just a fancy term for veterinary reproduction specialist, but it's, I mean, that is a big job, . And now she's bringing her expertise to Leader Dogs for the Blind, where she serves as Assistant director of Canine Health and Reproduction.
Overseeing their vital breeding program that helps provide guide dogs to people who are blind or low vision.
Timothy: Dr. McCray sounds like you've been a busy, busy person in the past, so let's talk about what, give us, [00:05:00] let's know a little bit more about yourself.
Dr Gayle: Yeah. And um, I am a Canadian American, originally born in Canada.
Um, I love. Theology, that's a, a very polarizing, um, kind of topic because of course, reproduction, there's a lot of things that are more taboo to talk about, but it takes a particular person to say, yep, this is what I wanna do with my life. I wanna make sure that we can help moms and dads and make healthy babies, and hopefully one day in my instance, make future guide dogs.
Christina: Yeah. That is amazing. And since you've been here, there was so much hype for you coming here because, oh my God, we have never had this in the history of Leader Dog. Can you kind of walk us through, I mean, I'm sure you've done so much in your short amount of time here, but what does a typical day look like?
Managing a breeding colony here at Leader?
Dr Gayle: Yeah. Um, that, that is a loaded question. . Yeah. So , you can start with making . Breed [00:06:00] decisions. So I'll start there. Um, so when I have a mom that comes into heat, um, she's ready to be bred. I have to make a decision on what dad to use, what leader dog, dad, or if I'm going to get semen shipped from other places, other guide dog schools, other service dog schools, and to share a genetics and hopefully make a, a, a better guide dog in the future and balance things out.
So that, um, currently looks like me looking through the dog, looking through her history. Has she been bred before? Has she had ? Litters before. And then in addition to that, am I going to, um, I look at their pedigree. We have oftentimes five generations of knowledge of these, um, these dogs in their past and who their PA parent grandparents are, the great grandparents are, et cetera, et cetera.
So I take that, um, and then their behaviors. Um, and then I also take their genetic testing and their health, and I try to pair them to a father. So that is . One of the, the aspects of my job that I do. Um, [00:07:00] so that is very exciting and um, very challenging. Eventually we'll be moving to, I dunno if you've mentioned it before, to the IWDR, which is the International Working Dog Registry, and that will simplify things because it'll all be in one place.
And it can be, um, a lot less of me looking at different places to find things, but it's all in one area and I can set up, um, test matings and I can see the outcome and it's very helpful. That's so exciting.
Timothy: So, Dr. Mra, so say, uh, if a dog's got an allergy, is that passed on to their next offspring, or, or is that something that we can find out in that, in that strain and be able to, you know, maybe kind of get that out of that strain?
Dr Gayle: I think if I had the knowledge to breed out a allergies, I would be a very w rich woman . And the reason for that is because when I look at a genetic trait, it's not only how it's passed on in its genetics, uh, inheritable, but it's how the environment [00:08:00] interacts with this dog as well. So there's the nature and the nurture, and there's something I can look at.
It's called heritability. So the likelihood of this gene or this. Trait that you're seeing, such as skin allergies being passed on to the offspring. And so with that, um, it's not necessarily that if I breed a dog that doesn't have skin allergies to another dog that doesn't have skin allergies, that does not mean that their offspring will not have skin allergies.
Unfortunately, I can decrease it. So if I have a dog that has really bad skin allergies, I'm probably not gonna use them for breeding. But otherwise, I have to take a lot of other things into consideration.
Leslie: I can imagine. I mean, that's such a complex job that you have, and it does sound like the IWDR will be helpful, less of a scavenger hunt in this process.
So that's very exciting. And we have talked about it a little bit here and there, and the impact that that's gonna have, and really just all of the efforts that our team has made. Oh, wow. Up to this point to get all of our information into there. But as Christina mentioned, [00:09:00] there has been a lot of hype about your role and you coming, and you've only been here for a short amount of time, but we've already heard the drastic impact that you've had.
But just take us back. Can you describe or break down the word Theo, just for us? Because I think we've said it multiple times. I think I've maybe only ever said it once correctly.
Dr Gayle: Um, so can you break that down for us? Yeah. Um, so theology is a Greek word and it means the study of creation of beasts. Um, so if you wanna think me as the person that creates beef , you can think of that, but hopefully it's a little more elegant than that sometimes.
Um, so yeah, that is the, the, the technical term and generally to most people, I say that I practice reproductive medicine. Okay. Just because that is a much more tangible, knowledgeable word. Yeah. Yeah. Most people will be like, what the heck is it? Yeah, exactly. I understand the ology. No, most people are like, I understand reproductive medicine.
Christina: Yeah. Fantastic. And I mean. How do you even find [00:10:00] to study that? That's where I'm at. I'm like, so where do you even start to find that as a career path?
Dr Gayle: Yeah, so my interest in theory of Geneology started actually at the University of Sydney during my exchange program. I took a, um, animal reproduction class.
And during that class it was all domestic species and a lot of, we also talked about advanced reproductive technologies as well. So those are things like, um, IVF in vitro fertilization or, um, creating clones and um, basically the, the things that went behind that in the science. And to me that was really interesting.
But also ethically, how can I be part of a conversation? And I'm really big on preventative. Medicine, preventative measures. I'm trying to make a, a healthy dog, so why not try to prevent certain things and create the best product possible or the best dog possible by starting with mom and dad and trying to [00:11:00] make it, um, a good puppy.
Leslie: That's such a good point of view. And so did you ever see yourself, like what was your dream career with this background? Yeah. Did you see yourself at a guide dog organization? Oh gosh,
Dr Gayle: yeah. Um, I was kind of up in the air. I really like academics. And that is not, again, a common thing for people to say, yeah, good for you.
Some
Leslie: people have to,
Dr Gayle: but I don't, I don't like all aspects of academics, but I do like teaching a lot. And then I also like the, um, the kind of attitude there is about finding answers and asking difficult questions and saying, Hey, how can I find an answer to this and study it so that others can
Understand and have, um, and benefit from the knowledge that I am gaining. Um, so I really do like that in academics. However, this job perfectly filled that because I can teach students, we often have veterinary students mm-hmm . [00:12:00] Yeah. From all over the world, but mostly . Michigan State University, which is exciting.
Mm-hmm . And then I have the ability to teach those. I just came from, I, I do a monthly kind of continuing education, um, lecture, and this month I talked about neonatal resuscitation. So I have the ability to do that and upskill our staff. Um, and then I am challenged every day with all the, the, the difficulties and the abnormalities that I can see in our colony, because if you do something enough, the.
You will always get every outcome. Mm-hmm . Um, so if you do a surgery enough, you're gonna get every complication. If you, um, ask a question enough, you're gonna get every single answer there's out there. Um, so for me, if I breed enough puppies and dogs, I'm gonna get every abnormality, every normal thing and just experience it all.
And that's great for me to learn from, but it's also great for me potentially to study and use that data and publish it so that others can see, um, what I can understand and learn from our colony. That is
Christina: amazing. [00:13:00] Um, not anything I'm interested in , so I
Dr Gayle: polarizing. Yeah,
Christina: yeah. Um, and makes you a perfect fit for this role.
We are so happy that you are here because we've already seen the impact with the puppies that are being, um, born and the guide dogs that we are producing. So are there any unique challenges when it comes to breeding future guide dogs opposed to ? Other types of dogs.
Dr Gayle: Yeah. . That is a great question and something that I had to be trained on a lot when I came here.
Um, and a lot of the breeding managers in our, um, service and guide dogs and service dogs, um, they're not . Veterinarians, they're not people who necessarily have any medical background. And so learning from them is a very interesting, um, scope because I'm learning from people who don't have that knowledge and background, but I'm someone, I'm happy to learn from everyone.
Everyone has something to teach me and I'm very excited about that. The biggest change though for me is that, [00:14:00] um. I did a lot of confirmation breeding and agility and things like that with other canines. Um, but now I focus on moving forward to a more efficient guide dog. That is what our clients would like at this time, and that can change mm-hmm
Um, and understanding that. But oftentimes I used to use a lot of . Frozen seamen or frozen genetics, and I'm not doing that as much anymore unless it's a dog that's currently living that is far away. Like I'm getting some genetics from Europe right now. Mm-hmm . Um, from guide dogs over there and I'm incorporating that into our colony.
And so with that, um, we wanna move forward. We wanna make a, a new efficient guide dog. So I don't use a lot of . Frozen semen that is like 30 years old, which is what I had done previously. If the client had want, or the owner in that instance had wanted it.
Timothy: So would you, uh, mix dogs still? Like the, the, the labs and the uh, retrievers, you know, they mix them together.
Do you do the same thing? [00:15:00] Is this how we get a perfect dog? We take two breeds of different dogs and try to get a perfect dog outta that.
Dr Gayle: I would say, I would pose the question to you. Do you think the guide dog you want is the same as Delta or Audrey, that you had met this, this recently?
Timothy: Uh, no. Yeah, he was, he was a golden g glaciers a lab.
So, and both worked very well.
Dr Gayle: Yes, exactly. Um, so the biggest thing is I need to be able to adapt to what our clients need. And that's sometimes a big dog. It's a little dog. It's a dog that's gonna be really active if our, they're. That their human is active or if it's gonna be more sedentary. And, um, some, a, a dog who is going to be active if their human requires it to, um, them to be active.
So it. It requires me to not necessarily have one perfect recipe, but something that is adaptable to the demands that are required.
Leslie: I love that. So since you've been at Leader Dogs for the Blind and you're talking about [00:16:00] getting to know really the client needs, right. And I know you're having a lot of conversations also with our, uh, guide Dog Mobility instructors as there's the one training the dogs.
There's so many people involved. Has there been anything that's been really surprising to you about trying to breed, quote unquote, the perfect guide dog, if you will? Mm. Yeah. Let's
Dr Gayle: see. The most surprising , um, hard to nail down. Yeah. . Yeah. There's a lot of discussion about body sensitivity, um, and harnesses.
And that's something that I've been talking to our, our, to our training department particularly, um, Tina and Emily about is, um, looking at. How our harnesses are working. Um, how's the dog working? Uh, are there things that we can do reduced genetically on my side to reduce bo body sensitivity? And there is, there is a genetic component, but it's not 100% genetics just like our skin allergies.
Um, so I have to look at, you know, what other things can we be doing? And that's our, our training department's doing a wonderful job in looking potentially [00:17:00] into modifying the harness or, um, changing how they're . They're doing some things there and I'm trying to help them out with that as well.
Leslie: I always think it's so fascinating how all the departments are all like intertwined in so many different ways.
Yeah. And I think to look at our organization from the outside, you would have no idea the details that are taken into consideration. I mean, that's just one trait, right? Body sensitivity out of . All these other traits that you're trying to breed for. I cannot fathom that science. Yeah, like I truly just, that is so far over my head, but I'm so glad that you are here and that you are enjoying it and doing it, and I know the team has been really excited about it.
What are some things that you're looking forward to kind of in the future, right? I know you just joined the team, but in the next couple years, what can we anticipate?
Dr Gayle: Yeah. Um, I really look forward to the full use of the IWDR. That will be wonderful . Um, so definitely very, very interested in that. In the, um.
Estimated breeding values that are calculated and then [00:18:00] potentially, um, looking into genetic estimated breeding values, um, which will be even more reliable depending on the trait. Um, so an estimated breeding value, basically, I can take a number or a percentage and see. Objectively how this dog ranks and say, yep, this dog is really high in, let's say hips, but really low in skin.
I need to breed it to a dog that has higher skin, but maybe not improve on the hips to get a, a better dog, or pick some traits out that I'm looking at. Um, so that will be very exciting. And then additional to that, and building off of that, is breeding a more efficient, . Colony basically. So that means breeding a certain number of puppies, but not having to breed as many to get the same number of graduates.
Yeah. Or increase our graduates and not overproduce puppies because that is . The one thing I really liked about being here is ethical breeding, right? Mm-hmm . And I'm trying to not [00:19:00] breed too many dogs or breed enough dogs to supply the clients that we have, um, and increase graduation rates. And so I want to always keep that in mind as well as, um, make sure that I'm increasing efficiency.
So I look forward to doing that as
Christina: well. That is just wild to even think about, like the numbers, percentages, all those things that go into it way over my head. So I'm glad it's your job. . I'm too . Um, and so having met some of our clients, um, how does that impact kind of your breeding decisions, kind of
Chatting with some of them learning what they like and don't like about their dogs. Is there anything that you kind of take back and go, okay, this is something I wanna look at for, you know, dogs in the future? I.
Dr Gayle: If, um, I've spoken a lot to Avril . Yes. And, uh, she would like dogs that are bigger with pointy ears and that are called German Shepherds.
Oh yeah. . But I, we'll not probably be [00:20:00] breeding German Shepherds because overall their graduation rate is very low, unfortunately. And their kennel stress is very high. Um, so I will, um, . I do enjoy our discussions and it reminds me the varied kind of physicality and mentality that I need to keep in these dogs.
So I do appreciate that a lot.
Timothy: So about how long does it take, I know you haven't done it yet, but how long does it take for generation to make a perfect dog, do you think?
Dr Gayle: Ooh, perfect dog. perfection is always an interesting question because I don't, I, I'm going to try and make things better, but perfect to me is always unattainable.
And so I'm just trying to make things as . As good as we can, knowing that adjustments can always be made in different directions. However, in terms of generational interval, if I am breeding a dog this year, so let's say, um, a dog that was bred and a puppy that was born in. July of [00:21:00] last year, that dog will come in, usually in for training IFT, uh, about a year after to 12 to 14, 16 months after they'll go in for their training, and then they'll go to class and they'll graduate, um, between probably about 16 and um, 24 months, depending on how old they are when they're coming in.
So, generational interval is actually pretty short. Um. Compared to other species, um, but compared to something like a rat or a mouse, it's long mm-hmm . And compared to other things, um, about a two year, two year difference. So hopefully I can start seeing differences in within the year because I've been here for six months.
Leslie: Well, and I think we've already seen quite a bit, a bit of impact on your work and the science behind it and your methodologies. Right? We are already breeding and having more success just in our current breeding, is that correct? That is correct, yeah.
Dr Gayle: Um, just a little bit. I've increased lit size from five and a half pups to six [00:22:00] pups in six months.
That's huge in our world. That's huge. Yeah. And then we've decreased still birth rates a little bit. Yeah. Which is, is good as well. But yeah. Um, just . Trying to do what we can with the knowledge that I have.
Leslie: Mm-hmm .
Dr Gayle: Yeah. We're taking full
Leslie: advantage of that. , like I said, your name and they're in the challenge,
It's been thrown out so many times. It's just so exciting and it's outside of our realms, very obviously here. Yeah. Um, between Christina and I and Timothy on the other end of this, we're, we're like, our minds
Christina: are blown. I know. Just, we dunno what to do. ,
Leslie: I'm fascinated by all the science and you know, it really takes you back to, just back in the day in science, when you write
Try to determine your eye color based on like your parents. Yeah. And all of those things that we used to do. Mm-hmm . And it is really interesting and that's like one tiny little piece. So to think about all these factors and like you said to the word perfect, right? The perfect guide dog doesn't exist because Timothy needs something different than Audrey needs something different.
And then. The environment continuously is changing and evolving. Mm-hmm . [00:23:00] So this, this standard that we're reaching for is, is always gonna be just out of reach. Right. Um, which I would imagine on your end is always exciting, right? Like, you're never going to, maybe that's disappointing. I don't know. But I would think it's always exciting.
Yeah. Like there's always more to achieve or something new to learn.
Dr Gayle: Yep. Absolutely. I am . Someone who's very interested in always learning and always making sure that I am doing the best that I can. And I know it's not gonna be perfect, but hopefully I can help as many people as possible by creating little good guide dogs.
Yeah,
Timothy: if you can make a guide dog that doesn't snore, that'd be Oh, happy ,
Christina: man. Timothy, you're asking for a lot. . I like that one.
Dr Gayle: I like not snoring. Oh, that's so cute.
Christina: Yeah, nobody calling about like . Kids or their husbands or anything like that, people are gonna be like, Anne, can you make this ? Can you make this?
Oh no. Yeah. Nope, nope. No humans. So I think we have to end with, what are some [00:24:00] of your favorite parts so far of your job?
Dr Gayle: Oh, the people. I mean, and that sounds like a broken record or like something you always ask, um, or you can say, but yeah, I really do. The team is wonderful. Um, everyone I've worked with is very interested, which, and as someone who's done some teaching in, in the academic setting, it.
It makes me, it's teaching a person who wants to learn is so much better than teaching a person who just does not wanna be there. Mm-hmm . And so having that team being engaged is, is wonderful. And then learning from others here is also amazing. Everyone has their little niche area, but at the same time is so welcome to sharing things and is also really collaborative.
So I really appreciate everyone who I work with and they've been been wonderful to me.
Leslie: That is so wonderful to hear, and I think it always does come back to the people. Yes, we have guide dogs here, um, but ultimately we are a people organization and you are trying to breed the perfect guide dog for all [00:25:00] of our incredible clients that help their lives and be independent travelers.
So it makes a lot of sense. I know sometimes from the outside people don't understand that, that we are a people organization. Um, but I think ultimately right, it's all about our clients. And so this is so exciting. Yes. The numbers and all this . Science behind it, but ultimately you are having a huge impact on our clients, on the clients who are sitting on the wait list, who are waiting for dogs, uh, um, breeding, like, like you said, not necessarily more dogs, but
More usable dogs, I think is a better way maybe to put it. So thank you so much for being here today. This has been so informative. Um, I'm gonna work on the term a little bit more so I can use it fluently, but thank you for your time.
Dr Gayle: No, I appreciate being here. Thank you for having me.
Leslie: And thank you so much to our listeners for listening to the Taking the Lead podcast.
I'm Leslie Hoskins with host Timothy Kyo and Christina Hebner. We hope you enjoyed learning about Dr. Gail McCray and her role at Leader Dog. Please join us next time as we. Continue to dive into the world of blindness,
Christina: and [00:26:00] if you'd like to learn more about applying for our free services at Leader Dog or being a breeding host for Dr.
McCray's team, you could head to leader dog.org or call us at (888) 777-5332. Don't forget you can reach us at taking the lead@leaderdog.org with any questions or ideas. If you like today's podcast, make sure to hit subscribe and check us out wherever podcast.