Taking The Lead Podcast_050626_Trisha
Leslie: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Taking the Lead podcast, where we empower people to be unstoppable. I'm Leslie Hoskins, with co-hosts Alyssa Otis and Timothy Cugno. How we doing today? I know, Timothy, you've got some, some things happening in your life. You wanna start us off today?
Timothy: Uh, yeah. Um, within the past little while, uh, I've decided to, uh, start thinking about, uh, replacing Glacier, uh, with another guide dog.
So now we are, we have started the process, I guess, and, uh, it was a hard thing, a hard decision to make. And, uh, Glacier's just, uh, she's... When we get to, uh, common things she does every day, she gets kinda bored and she wanders off a little bit.
Alyssa: Mm.
Timothy: Uh, when we go to the airport or go to the mall, she's dead on, but it's everyday stuff that she's done a thousand million times, like g- when going to the, in our church parking lot or at a grocery store, inside the grocery store, she's just starting to wander off a little bit.
She's get- losing some attention. So, [00:01:00] um, I think she's getting to that point. So, uh, we've, we've, uh, we decided to start the process and, um, it's, it, it's a difficult situation. I'm not happy about it.
Alyssa: Sure.
Timothy: Uh, it's a lot of emotions of doing this, and I'm, I'm gonna need Leader Dog support and everybody else's because this is my first dog and I don't know what, when...
I mean, it's okay now, but, uh, nine, 10, 12 months from now or whatever, um, it's gonna be, it's gonna be difficult to leave that day, to go to Leader Dog and say that I'm never gonna work with my dog again. And, um, just thinking about it gives me, you know, upsets.
Alyssa: Yeah. And, and it's so hard, too, because, you know, with people, we say we're ready to retire.
You know, I think people say that probably in their 20s, 30s. And eventually they get to that point of actually retiring. But with a dog, I mean, you're doing such a service to Glacier for looking at [00:02:00] how she's feeling and looking at her body language and looking at her interests and looking out for her, you know, best interest to decide when it's right to retire, 'cause that's not an easy decision, and there's, it's a, a b- gray area.
There's no, you know, day that I know, yes, today's the day that I'm gonna retire the dog. So I, I give you a lot of credit, too, Timothy, because it is, it, very difficult to come to that decision, feel okay with that decision, even if there are some fears or concerns or, or nervousness of not knowing what's ahead.
Leslie: Yeah. And there's not, like, a specific age, where it's just like- Right ... "Okay, your dog's eight years old. They are definitely gonna be retired." It's so different for every dog. So you know Glacier best, and what is and what isn't normal for her.
Timothy: Well, I don't want there be a gap. There's a fine line, I guess, 'cause you can probably work a dog too much, and I, I don't know.
I don't want everyone to be that situation. But-
Leslie: Mm ...
Timothy: um, yeah, I'm just feeling it, and there's a little disconnect. I, I, w- I was embarrassed a couple weeks ago with her at the, at, at my church parking lot. She [00:03:00] passed a truck several times, and we were just lost in the parking lot. And it was embarrassing 'cause everybody's looking at you.
We know that's a working dog, but she can't find a truck.
Alyssa: Right.
Timothy: And that she's been going to for the past six years, six and a half years.
Alyssa: Yeah.
Timothy: And, um, it was embarrassing for her and me.
Alyssa: Of course. But know that, you know, that is a natural progression within a guide dog's life. You know, you're not doing anything wrong.
She's not doing anything wrong. And, and retirement and age and what retirement itself looks like for every dog is so different. Some dogs do work up until their handler decides to come back for another dog. Some dogs do partial retirement. You know, I'm gonna take the dog out sometimes and not others.
And there, like I said, there's no right or wrong way to do it. Um, you know, but definitely I, I know you felt that embarrassment, but I'm sure there have been a million other times that- Oh, yeah ... that she has shown everybody all that you guys could do as a team.
Timothy: I mean, as much as we traveled over the past four and a half, five years.
I mean, good night.
Alyssa: That's exactly it. How many people have seen you and been [00:04:00] impressed, you know?
Timothy: Yeah, so we're, we're planning on a cruise this September. It'll be her last cruise to Alaska.
Alyssa: Oh,
Timothy: good. And, uh, it'll be her last big trip most likely, and, uh, it'll be her third trip to Alaska on a cruise, so. Oh
Alyssa: my
Timothy: good-
Alyssa: well,
Timothy: it's- There's gonna be one celebration.
Eight people are going with us. We're gonna celebrate her retirement.
Alyssa: Yeah. If you need a ninth, I'm free. Well, hey,
Timothy: I mean, come on.
Alyssa: I've only been once. She's been more than I have. So it's a little embarrassing on my end there. Oh my goodness. Well, y- thank you for sharing that, Timothy, because, like I said, it's good to let everybody know, all of our listeners know, it is not just from point A to point B.
There are so many different ways to go throughout your independent travel journey, which actually brings me to our guest today. Our guest today has been involved with Leader Dogs for the Blind for the last 10 years. Tricia has participated in multiple Leader Dog programs and is excited to share about her independent travel journey.
Leslie: Yes, with us here today is Tricia Kulkarni. She is originally from Dayton, Ohio, and found her way to [00:05:00] Leader Dog as a teenager. Since that time, Tricia has earned her bachelor's and master's degrees in computer science from Stanford University, interned at companies like Microsoft and the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, and graduated from an independence training program at the Louisiana Center for the Blind.
This January, Tricia started her first full-time position as a software engineer at Apple working on VoiceOver for the Mac.
Timothy: Wow. I need to talk to you about my iPhone. We
Leslie: got questions. Yeah.
Timothy: Tricia, welcome to the podcast. How did you find Leader Dog to, as a teenager and come to the camp?
Trisha: Thank you so much.
It's awesome to be here. Leader Dog has a special place in my heart, and, um, it's 10 years now, but I think, uh, my involvement in the organization will last a lifetime. So, um, thank you for everything that the team does. Um, how did I find Leader Dog? Well, I unexpectedly went blind right before high school.
And of course, when the transition [00:06:00] first started, there were a lot of questions to answer about how I was gonna do school and live daily life. Um, but around the middle of my high school journey, I started to crave a little bit more of the adventure that I had had before I went blind. My family loved to travel, and the question popped up in my mind of like, "Why can't I still do those things, um, even though now I might have to do it a little bit differently?"
And so even though it was really scary, I saw, uh, that Leader Dog had a camp for teenagers, and I thought it would be, um, a fun experience to come and do some of the recreational activities that the camp put on. And that was really my motivation for coming, I would say. Um, what I got out of it was a complete different story.
I think that sometimes we think we know what we're gonna get out of an experience, um, but what I didn't realize is that, you [00:07:00] know, I went to school every day in high school being the only blind person I knew and the only person that, like, knew about the struggles I was going through from a firsthand experience.
And when I went to camp, I finally got to meet people who were going through the same experience as I was, both, you know, some of the challenges, but also some of the beauty that comes out of living life non-visually. Um, there were people from all over the country, and we just ended up having a blast.
Leslie was our camp director- ... and, uh, she did an amazing job with the program. We got to do all kinds of things, and it really showed me that, uh, life was for the taking, and I could, um, you know, go out and do things even that I didn't think I could do at that time. And, um, that actually sparked me wanting to spend more time on being able to travel and feel confident with getting around.
Um, and that's what brought me [00:08:00] to the accelerated O&M program as well, was, um, during camp- We did an activity with... I remember the Trekker Breeze. I don't know if, um, Leader Dog still uses it, but we each got a Trekker Breeze, and we were trying to find locations and drop beacons around, um, Rochester. And then, um, I, I realized that it was kind of uncomfortable, but really, like, exciting when I found a place that we were looking for or was able to accomplish the task.
So then we just continued the fun. Actually, Leslie was my instructor- ... at, during Accelerated O&M and, as well, and we got into some trouble. We had some fun on- Like, I remember we went to a college campus and, um, navigated downtown, and I left maybe not necessarily knowing all the answers of how to get around because, of course, it was only a week.
But I think it was more the attitude that this is something I wanna keep working on and growing, uh, with, that I [00:09:00] got out of those two programs.
Leslie: Tricia, you're making my O&M and camp heart just, like, swell. This is like- Like, everything you said is exactly like our dream. Like, that's what we hope everybody walks away with from their camp experience is those connections and, and life experiences and then coming to O&M as well as, like, a follow-up and, uh, and realizing you can do it.
Absolutely. It's just using different tools and feeling empowered to take life on. I, I'm so happy to hear all- ... of those things. That's absolutely fantastic. Um, and so you came for that week of O&M, and I do remember you said we got into a few situations. We ran into each other recently, uh, Tricia and I, at a conference, and I was telling Tricia that a core memory that I have is when she was with us for orientation and mobility, and we did a drop-off lesson.
And, um, I dropped Tricia off, and I'm kind of following in a van. Well, of course, the environment in Rochester that we had traveled all week, perfectly fine. Everything's fine. That Friday, all the construction in the world. They [00:10:00] are redoing almost every- ... sidewalk in downtown Rochester, and I just remember being like, "Oh my gosh."
And- ... it didn't exactly go perfectly. However, Tricia handled it with such poise and confidence and navigated it and did not let it fluster her, and I just was so absolutely impressed with everything that you did, and it was, it was so exciting as an instructor to see the progression that you made throughout the week.
But, man, was I nervous because that environment just completely took a turn on us on that final day. Um, but then that wasn't your last journey. Do you wanna tell us what happened next after O&M?
Trisha: Yeah. So, um, I'll mention that, um, one of the parts of camp that was incredible, and I think my favorite part of camp, was Dog Day, which was a chance where each of us got to walk with a leader dog and get to do some routes with the GDMI.
And I remember that I got Remus, who was a German shepherd, [00:11:00] um, who was in training, and, uh, we had a great time, and I just remember, like, the feeling of walking with a guide dog was much more similar to how I traveled before I went blind compared to using a cane. Um, and I really, like, loved that feeling.
And, um, you know, I- at the time I was, like, 16, 17, starting to think about going to college, and one of the biggest things that scared me about, um, going to college was how was I gonna get around, um, was I going to be able to be confident and make friends? And I think at the time, uh, getting a guide dog was very in line with those goals, so I applied, um, to receive a leader dog.
And, um, I have to tell this story. This is one of, like, another really special, um, part of my leader dog journey, which is that I actually returned to camp a week before I was supposed to receive my [00:12:00] leader dog, um, back home in Ohio. I was doing a home delivery. And, um, I remember on Dog Day, I was like, "Am I gonna get to walk with the dog that is, like, going to be mine?"
And I, I was really stressed about it, and I kept asking everyone. I asked Erica, I asked Leslie, I asked, like, anybody who worked there. I was like, "Am I gonna get to meet my dog?" And everyone kind of agreed that mum was the word- ... and they weren't gonna say anything. So, um, one thing that I knew about the dog that I was gonna get in July was the breed of my dog, and, um, it, it was gonna be a cross.
And so the dog that I walked out, um, that walked out that day was not a cross. Uh, at least told to me was- ... um, a black Lab. And so I was like, "Oh, this is not good." Like, "I don't get to walk with my dog. I'm so sad." Um, and throughout the day, I just fell in love with this other dog that I was walking with, and I was like, [00:13:00] "Man, I, like, love, like, our pace together," and we got to do some extra routes compared to everyone else that was at camp that year.
And I was so, um, like, conflicted inside because I was like, "Wow, if this is what my dog's going to be like, I'm super excited," but at the same time I was disappointed that I wasn't gonna get to walk with the dog, um, that I was receiving. And so me and Kevin, I'll never forget this, sat down outside of, uh, the downtown training center And he asked me how, um, I thought the day went, and I, I was like, "You know, it couldn't have gone better.
I think that, like, I w- um, felt my, like a good rhythm, and I, like, am really excited to get a di- guide dog." And he was like, um, "So if you... When we are picking your dog, we would want it to be just like this one." And I was like, "Oh, I get it. She's not my dog. I get it." Um, and then he was like, "What would I say...
What would you [00:14:00] say if, um, I told you that this was your dog?" And everyone started clapping. Aw. And I started crying, and it was just a really special moment. Um, but yeah, so I did end up going through h- a home delivery program, um, with Liberty, uh, Libby for short, and she was my partner in crime for my senior year of high school.
And then we had a big move to the West Coast to start college. Um, we navigated a global pandemic. Yeah. And then we wrapped up our working career, um, during my master's program. When I graduated, um, we decided to retire her, and so now she's happy and loving her relaxed life in Ohio with my parents, where she gets too many treats, in my opinion.
Alyssa: Oh, gosh. I hope your parents listen to this. That's, that's... What an incredible experience. I know the instructors, we pride ourselves on not giving away too many secrets [00:15:00] about somebody's dog. So, um, I'm sure that was difficult for all of them all day, but what a great little story that you got to, to walk with your dog.
It's amazing.
Trisha: Oh, yeah. It was amazing, and she's amazing. One of the richest relationships I've had in my life is my Libby girl, so.
Timothy: So Tricia, you said that when you came to camp, that was the first time you ever met another blind person. That's what you said?
Trisha: Yeah. I, I would say so. As I would say, definitely, um, the first time I met peers that were blind.
I might have met, like, other adults, but-
Timothy: What was that week like to be around 16, 17-year-olds your age and finding out, hey, you know, there's nothing wrong with me. We're normal. And to be able to get friendship out of that and stuff like that, how was that week with you like that?
Trisha: Yeah. I think one thing that really struck me was a lot of times throughout school, people would be like, "You're the first blind person I've ever met," or, "You're the only blind person doing this and doing that."
And um, [00:16:00] I think sometimes when those experiences got difficult, it was like, wow, I have nobody to talk to about these things. But, uh, when I was able to meet people who were- Honestly so diverse in their talents and what they wanted to do. I realized that if there was anything that I had questions about, I'm sure that I could find somebody who had been through something similar.
Um, I think the nice thing about going, um, and finding community is that it, it doesn't take away your individuality. There were still some things that I was doing that other people weren't doing, or like, you know, we're defined by where we come from and our family, but it was the first time I wasn't defined by blindness itself, and I think that was a really, um, nice community to have and one that carried me through the rest of high school.
I know that we had a group chat with some of the people that I met during camp, and it was really fun to tell like, [00:17:00] "Wow, my guide dog really crushed it today." Um, but also at the same time being like, "Man, this person just like would not believe that I could get up and get my own cup of water," and that was really frustrating.
And so I think both for the wins and some of the hard moments, it was nice to have a, a group chat from Leader Dog to support me once I got home too.
Alyssa: Absolutely. And, and what's interesting, and I know Leslie had mentioned this earlier, is that that's a huge part of what we talk about when we talk about our teen summer camp is the social aspect of it.
So we can say, yay, Leader Dog does mobility, but they also help with, with relationships and building that connection and that community, and that itself is absolutely fantastic. And now through Leader Dog, you've traveled with both a cane and a guide. So how, how would they compare to you? I know you said that walking with a dog was more similar to how you felt prior to losing your vision, but what, what were some of those differences?
Trisha: I've come to love both forms of travel, and I think that it's [00:18:00] not just, um, a good thing, but a really important thing for people to be comfortable with both. Um, admittedly, I wish that I had spent a little more time, um, building on that foundation that I started with my instructors, including Leslie like in high school.
Yeah. Because I got a dog pretty soon after that, and I was so in love with that form of mobility that I Didn't end up keeping up with my cane skills as well, and it was only, um, when I was thinking about graduating college and starting a job that I was like, "You know, I, I really need to work on this."
Like, Libby is going to be retiring, and I'm not quite sure if I'm ready to get another dog right away. So I actually invested in, um, going to a nine-month rigorous in, uh, independence program through the Louisiana Center for the Blind, where they really focus on, um, cane skills. And I [00:19:00] think after having gone through that and now feeling like my skillsets for both forms of mobility are up to par, um, I can more objectively compare the two 'cause I think before I would say, "Oh, guide dog life is just superior," um, in all, every way, but I think it was because there was still growth I needed to do with using my cane.
Um, in terms of how they compare, I would say that a lot of, um, what we hear about the two are true. You know, like, um, you can put your cane in the corner of your room at the end of the day and, um, not have to worry about it going to the bathroom or- Yeah. Yeah, you don't have- ... needing a longer- You don't have to pick up after
Alyssa: a cane
Leslie: exercise.
Trisha: Yeah, exactly. Um, but then, you know, with a cane you're also, um, not just confronting obstacles physically, right? Like, you do have to hit a pole to know that it's there and then go around it. Uh, but there's also a lot [00:20:00] more obstacles with the public, I would say, in terms of people assuming that you need help when you don't have a dog.
And I think people like to believe that a s- a service dog, like, does the work for you. Yeah. And so they
Alyssa: find
Trisha: peace in seeing that a dog has eyes and is looking out for you. Um, but to convince the public that you're totally good with the cane I think is something that we still need a lot of social reform on.
Um, I've noticed... Like, I remember a few years ago, 'cause, uh, Leslie was talking about, you know, people have different approaches to retirement. There was a time when Libby was working part-time, and so I was going to, um, take her home to my parents. And so I flew one way with a dog and one way without a dog, and the contrast was crazy in terms of people's, the, like, assumption that they could grab me or pull me in a certain direction.
And, um, I think that that is something that Whether it's a good thing or [00:21:00] not, uh, comes with having a dog is maybe just a little bit more of a personal bubble. But I don't think that's a reason to stop using my cane 'cause I, I want that to change. I want more people to, um, respect both forms of travel. Um, I think those are some of the things that come to mind, but I'm happy to keep unpacking this-
as
Leslie: the conversation unfolds.
Alyssa: No, I... You are hitting all of Leslie's talking points. So this is great. You are just thrilling her to no end here,
Leslie: Trisha. I know. I'm delighted by everything. I appreciate you sharing that and your perspective. And now you're doing so many different things with your life, so I wanna kind of fast-forward a little bit.
But before we move on to your career and all of the things that you're doing there, I am curious, you're not currently traveling with a guide dog. Can you tell us a little bit about that decision and/or if that's, you know, gonna maintain or, or where you're at with that decision?
Trisha: Yeah. I think life handed me a big period of transition, uh, the past year.
After, um, Libby retired, I was traveling a lot, and I was on the job [00:22:00] search. And I wasn't really sure if I wanted the responsibility of having a dog. Mm-hmm. 'Cause, um, I think maybe before I didn't even realize how much of a responsibility having a dog is. Um, but after, uh, retiring Libby, I was like, wow, like, I'm not waking up in, like, early in the morning to take my dog on a walk, and I had more time to myself.
And I think some of that was a bit of a relief just with how much, um, I was navigating and trying to figure out about my own life. Um, and so I think it goes to show, again, that I, I really believe having cane skills is really important because if I didn't have that, there might've been more of a, a need to get another dog right away.
But I've been enjoying this transition period where I've been working on my health a lot. I actually, um, got into running, and I'm running, um, a half-marathon this summer. And so it's been a journey of kind of [00:23:00] my own health and my own mobility, um, without a dog in the picture. Um, I do think that I miss some parts of having a dog, for sure.
Um, I think as a young woman, one really big one is that I s- foresee myself living in big cities over the next few years, San Francisco or New York. I was just in DC. And, like, um, you know, you can control your actions and your orientation and mobility, but you can't always control the public, as has been a theme in some of my comments so far.
And I think that safety-wise, um, I would, I would love to have a companion as I'm going through those experiences. Um- And yeah, sometimes it can just reduce the mental load of getting around your day, um, offsetting some of that to a dog to be getting you around obstacles and those kinds of things. So, um, I, I, I definitely haven't ruled it [00:24:00] out.
I am still kind of in a time of contemplation, but enjoying a little bit of a break and time for reflection.
Timothy: That's what's so great about Leader Dog. It's what you wanna do, and we will be here wait- ready for you to get another dog eventually, hopefully. And, and it's on your time, not our time.
Alyssa: And that's it.
Yeah. And putting all of that thought into it ahead of time, just like you said, you know, when you were younger, you didn't really know. And, and how are you to know? No matter what age you are, how are you to know exactly what you're getting yourself into if you've never had a guide before? Um, so spending time to think about it is, I mean, a brilliant thing to do.
I would suggest that for everybody, you know, is whether it's a not now, not ever, whatever it is, it's different for everyone. So putting in that thought is, is great. And so you're getting around with your cane, and I know you've got a very busy life. I- Mm-hmm ... need to talk to you about Apple, otherwise Timothy will be upset-
that we're not talking about- ... about this. So what are you doing with Apple now?
Trisha: Yeah. So I, um, was really fortunate to get a full-time job opportunity [00:25:00] at Apple as a software engineer on the VoiceOver team for Mac. So, um, I've been a, actually, a long time Windows user- ... um, with JAWS. And so at first, I was like, "Are you sure you wanna give me this job?"
"I don't have any VoiceOver." But I think the whole spirit of working on accessibility at Apple is that, um, we want to increase the usage of the product and see how we can make it easier and more fulfilling for, um, blind people to use the product. And since starting, I've been blown away with just the culture at the company in terms of inclusion.
Um, it's not just, like, part of their branding. Um, it's really clear and just, like, even how the office is set up and the number of, um, diverse perspectives they hire on at the company. So I'm really grateful that it's where I'm starting out my career 'cause, um, kind of in the spirit of what we've been talking about, there's a lot to figure out as a blind person and what you care about in a [00:26:00] job, and, um, also some learning curves, right?
Not everything comes as quickly. Um, and especially in a time with AI where everything's moving super fast, I'm just super glad to have an employer that kind of understands that and is willing to work with me as we navigate some uncertain times.
Leslie: And how lucky for Apple to have you and all of your experience.
Aw. I'm just in awe of everything that you've continued to accomplish and, and share with us here today. So thank you so much. And I'm, I'm hopeful that we can follow along with your journey, whatever that looks like, and be a part of it and a part of your story. But you have so much to contribute to this world and to accessibility and Apple and all the things, and I just really appreciate the thoughtfulness that you have put into all of your mobility, whether it be with a guide dog or with a long white cane.
I think there's so much to learn from this episode, and you really sharing your honest opinion and, uh, how you felt in different situations and the pros and cons. Uh, much appreciated, Tricia. Yeah. [00:27:00] Thank you.
Timothy: Any secrets you can tell us about Apple is coming up. Okay. No, no,
Leslie: no, no, no.
Alyssa: Yeah. When's the next iPhone coming out?
Yeah. Like Leslie said, Tricia, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for talking. You have made Leslie's heart grow- ... twice its size. So thank you for talking about your experience both at Leader and since Leader. I also wanna thank everybody that has joined us today to listen to Taking the Lead. I'm Alyssa Otis with hosts Timothy Cugno and Leslie Hoskins.
We hope you enjoyed learning about Tricia's journey through our program at Leader Dog. Please join us next time as we continue to dive into the world of blindness.
Leslie: And if you'd like to learn more about applying to Leader Dog, you can head to leaderdog.org or call us at 888-777-5332. Don't forget, you can reach us at takingthelead@leaderdog.org with any questions or ideas.
If you liked today's podcast, make sure to hit subscribe and check us out wherever podcasts [00:28:00] stream.