Christina: [00:00:00] Welcome to the taking the lead podcast, where we empower people to be unstoppable. I'm Christina Hapner with my co-host Leslie Haskins and Timothy Cuno. Who has, I can't believe it's already may such a busy summer gearing up. I have so many things going on. Weddings, parties, all that fun stuff. What do you guys have going
Timothy: on?
Well, in July, I'm headed to the NFP convention down in new Orleans. I'm looking forward to that in person. So the dates on that is July the fifth through the 10th.
Leslie: Ooh. And it's the only refining it's happening in person. ACB is happening in person this summer, I'll be heading to AR international, which is going to be in St.
Louis this summer. Um, so really getting to connect with other colleagues and professionals, but other clients, um, I'm so excited about. Be in the same room as other people. Yes,
Christina: it is so nice that things are like finally [00:01:00] getting back to normal. Being able to interact and hang out with people and Timothy, you're going to be in new Orleans during my birthday.
So you're going to have to celebrate for me.
Timothy: Oh, I'll drink your drink.
Leslie: I'll drink. Oh, wait a minute. Now, Timothy, I'm expecting you to be at a booth a couple of days here.
Timothy: I'll be in a booth. I'll drink. I'll drink an extra coffee for you there. Thank
Christina: you. You know how much I love
Leslie: coffee. That's right. You guys can talk on the side about your alternate plans, but, uh, as far as I'm concerned, you'll be working and I'm just kidding.
I hope you enjoyed the conference. Um, and I hope everybody who is listening do check out these conferences. They're really informative. It's a great way to learn about other resources. And it's also just a really great way to connect with other individuals kind of going through the same things, um, and share resources.
So highly encouraged. I know, I, myself, I'm really excited again, to get back out there and meet people. Do all the things that were so normal, what just two years ago? [00:02:00] Yeah.
Timothy: Well, I'm excited about it's going to be me and glaciers first trip by ourselves because I got her and the pandemic hit like four months later.
So this will be our first. Just me and her. So it's going to be exciting because we've never had that journey together. And, uh, I'm going to see how she does that. Um, it's going to be great.
Christina: Yeah. And I bet you, you're going to meet some other people who have guide dogs there as well. Well,
Timothy: yeah, that, and if I'm at the leader, dog booth, everybody can come by and say hello and, and, uh, we'll talk about how great leader dog
Leslie: is.
Christina: Timothy. You're such a great ambassador for leader dog.
Leslie: I know you're so lucky to have. And I bet that's going to be a really good topic, Timothy. I wonder if there'll be some sessions on that of people, you know, what did people do during the pandemic? If you couldn't get out and do routes and exercise with your dog and all those types of things and or people who got their dogs right before the pandemic, or even during like how do people maintain those [00:03:00] skills?
You'll have to report back. Cause now you've got me thinking. I'm so curious to hear what others have been up to. All right. We are so excited today because on today's episode, we're going to talk about some really difficult topics such as what happens when a guide dog gets too old to work and goes into retirement.
Or also what happens when a dog passes away and clients have to prepare for a replacement dog. These can be incredibly difficult times for our handlers and their families. We need
Christina: us to discuss, this is a Laurie Craig. Laurie joins us not only as a leader, dog, graduate her. But also a licensed psychologist, but over 34 years of experience, Laurie has worked in private practice along with work with agencies throughout her professional career.
And we are so fortunate that Laurie shares her experience with us and volunteers with leader, dog, to help clients with grief adjustment and the transition between guide dogs,
Timothy: Laurie, welcome to the podcast. Can you tell us a little bit about your journey with. [00:04:00]
Laurie: Yes. Thank you for having me excited to be here.
Um, yes, I was born with congenital cataracts, had them removed as an issue. And spend the majority of my early life with functional vision, uh, with of course being legally blind. Um, I received assistance throughout school and college and I in my early twenties because of the cataract surgery. I have glaucoma as a result and have had several surgeries and what have you through the years, but it wasn't until.
Um, about 2008 little brief for that, that I'd lost the majority of my vision right now, detachments and a few other things. And so at that time I did some king training, looked into leader, dog, [00:05:00] and I then after my O and M training, then I went to leader dog. Yeah, my first dog, a golden retriever named Kaitlin and had her for almost 16 years.
And I worked her until she was 13 and she was the love of my life. Wow. She was fabulous. Oh, she was, she was special. Yeah. Laurie.
Christina: So how did you originally hear about liter now?
LOri: Bye sister worked there and I, I live, um, about 20 miles north of Rochester. So in fairness, I always heard about leader dog, you know, so yeah, but my sister worked there for 12 years, so I was on the campus.
So the early beginning [00:06:00] and. Yeah, so always, um, interested. And it took, I will say though, it took a while to be convinced that, uh, you know, one using a cane was difficult and then do I want a dog? And so, yeah, it was the best thing I ever did in my life.
Leslie: So, so happy to hear you had a leader, dog connection, a personal connection.
It's so funny how small of a world it is sometimes and all of the little connections that are. You know, another important thing that we hear all the time is that clients like you've mentioned, you know, traveling with a cane is really hard, but also so many clients feel like they don't deserve to come to leader dog because they still have some remaining vision.
Is that something that you felt as
Laurie: well? Yes. And, you know, I think the difficulty is like I have a small amount of vision, a slight amount of vision, I should say, in my right eye. And it's mostly peripheral vision. And. [00:07:00] Use that amount of vision mean I struggle to use that amount of vision. So the idea that, you know, you don't have much vision, so you just don't use it.
No, we use any thread of vision that you have left. I mean, that's just our instinct to do that, but that. You know, once you connect and once you see how important that dog is or a cane, whatever, you know, works for that individual. Certainly. But for me, the connection with Caitlin, my first dog, it was just incredible.
You know, it's hard to put words to, because it's such an intimate relationship. I mean, like really like, no,
Leslie: Absolutely. And that's such a long time to be together. Probably one of the longest working guide dogs that I've heard of and then to, to live to 16, which is incredible. Can you tell us why, you know, you've talked so [00:08:00] passionately about Caitlin.
What was that like when you had to retire Kaitlin?
Laurie: Oh my goodness. Um, it was very well, it, I cried putting it very bluntly. Felt and, and, you know, something that really occurred to me and I have talked to about it with a couple of other people as well. Is that feeling, um, that all my goodness I'm going backwards.
I don't have the vision I thought I had because we were one when we worked. Um, so. In essence, um, enabled me to feel that I had more vision than I actually get more usable, functional vision, because she, she was there. She knew, I mean, I, [00:09:00] uh, where I used to live and she would walk me, we would go to work every day.
Um, I could tell her Caitlyn, we're going to the dentist to Dr. Bankers. She knew how to get there.
Leslie: So she really added to your confidence and made you feel like you. Yeah.
Laurie: So that feeling of not having her and, uh, you know, to work with me was, I just, it was overwhelming to be very honest. Um, it was. Learning things over again, that before I got another dog and then the feeling of, um, in, in my transition group, we talked a lot about the guilt.
I felt, um, that, oh, how could I get another dog? Nobody will replace it. She, she was my soulmate. If you [00:10:00] will, you know, we use those terms with, um, relationships and, and that, you know, I've heard other people express that as well. There's so many feelings attached with that transition. Deciding to get another dog and how difficult that is the sense of oh, trail and how, and if you are able to keep your dog go to many, many people can not.
They either, you know, if their dog hasn't passed away, then they have to relinquish that dog to someone else to give that dog to someone else. A lot of tremendous loss and then the feelings that are associated with that. So what does that
Timothy: transition, like you putting your trust into a new dog and hopefully they can pick up where your other dog was.
What was
Laurie: that like? And you know what, and they don't. When I experienced getting [00:11:00] my second dog, which I had an experience when I went for my second dog and I did, uh, I went to campus and, and, uh, my dog and unfortunately, uh, two months after I got her, she did not work out. So that. And that does not happen on, you know, we all know that's not the norm, but it does happen that the dog just isn't that perfect fit.
And as a result, this dog was a career change dog. But when I was in training with it was very difficult, it, it felt like. Starting, you know, for in many ways, at least, but I did have the skills and that something, you know, obviously when you first start out with your first dog, you don't have, but you have the skills, but you're trying to bond in that, that in-home, [00:12:00] it doesn't come at media.
It doesn't it's, um, it's a process and it's, it's a little different for everyone. Certainly. Absolutely.
Leslie: And when you have such a strong connection and a long relationship with our first guide dog, they say the second one is the hardest, right? Because you almost don't remember what it was like when you first started with your first sky dog and how difficult it was and how much time it took to learn one another.
You just remember the good times and when you were a seamless team. So starting over with that second. It is often really difficult. Um, but because it is a lot of work and you kind of forget about that, but really quick, I do want to go back. Cause you mentioned a really good point, Lori, about, um, many times when people are transitioning from their first to second dog or third to fourth, whatever it is that sometimes people can't keep their previous dog.
And the reason for that could be a couple of different things. It could be one that they live in. Where they can only have service animals. And once a dog has retired, they are no longer a service animal that are packed. So they may not be able to keep them in their house anymore. [00:13:00] Another reason is maybe you can't financially support two dogs.
That can be, uh, quite the burden on somebody. So there's many different reasons as to why somebody wouldn't be able to keep that previous dog. And I also want to mention. Those dogs always find a loving home to go to so many times it's with a close friend or family member so that that client can still, um, be engaged and interact with the dog as regularly as possible.
But if that's not an option either, or sometimes even clients do pass away and they have the dog and nobody can care for the dog leader, dog will always take dogs back always. And so recently we even. A leader, dog return after reading at working, I think for almost eight, nine years. And she came back to us and what's really nice is that we have so many team members who will house those dogs while we wait to find them a home.
Um, so that they're not going back into that, uh, the canine development center, just because they've been used to being in homes for so long. But of course, what typically happens is those team members fall in [00:14:00] love with that dog, and then they ended up adopting the dog. So I just want to be clear that there are a couple of reasons why somebody wouldn't be able to keep their dog, not just that they don't want it anymore.
Cause that's usually never the case because as you can hear, Lori mentioned what a bond that people have. So let's talk about that transition period. Just a little bit more between the second and third or first and fourth, then all of those different things. So Lori, can you tell us a little bit more? How do you know, or how do you talk someone through a retirement of a guide dog?
What are some signs? What are some things that you give clients as advice or things to look for?
Laurie: Usually what people, uh, will say is that they, they right away have a sense. Um, so they most, you know, usually. To us and say, um, you know, they're just not responding in the way they used to, um, share hesitant to, [00:15:00] uh, you know, get up and put the harness on like they used to get so excited and they're not, if they don't have that excitement anymore to work, um, their pace is slower.
Um, they are, um, just the feeling because there is such a connection between, uh, you know, the person and that dog that I think most people have that sense of, you know, they're, they're ready. They are, they're just not, uh, not feeling that they want to. And I don't want to force them if they're not ready.
And also there could be, um, some physical signs, maybe they're getting some arthritis, um, you know, there's, there may be need to go to the vet. So there can be, you know, we don't want to, it's [00:16:00] difficult to deal with, but certainly. Ill just like people do. And so there are many things that can contribute even in a younger
Christina: dog.
Yeah. So definitely a D a variety of different signs. And me personally, I know my personal dog. I mean, I don't have a guide dog, my personal dog. I can tell, you know, when he's not feeling good and that sort of thing, but Lori, could you tell us more about your role at leader dog in the transition groups?
Laurie: Yes. Uh, for every, um, class that comes in, we have a voluntary transition group, and that is for people who would like to share their stories and connect with other people, um, on the difficulty of one, getting a new dog, um, Just talk about what they're going through and with the loss of their dog. So [00:17:00] it's for people who are, you know, getting their new dog, not first-time people, but, um, someone who's getting, you know, I've had people anywhere from their second dog to their third or fourth or fifth guy, you know, or more than that, even.
So, yeah. And we. We share. Everybody has a story and they want to talk and share their feelings. And it's everything is confidential, obviously. Yeah. Yes.
Christina: That is amazing. Timothy, did you know about these different types of groups and things that later dog has?
Timothy: Uh, I heard there was some kind of grieving process while I was up there, but I really never investigated into it because, you know, I was getting glacier.
She was my first dog. So
Laurie: you're way down the line. Right, right. So,
Timothy: yeah, it's great that that's there for us because you know, these dogs mean everything to us. These things are, these dogs are our mobility, our independence and [00:18:00] everything. And absolute is one that would be just terrible. So my question is how does someone cope with that law?
Laurie: Well, passes away. Yeah, it it's. Everyone deals with grief a little bit differently, but we all go through the stages of grieving, you know, the loss that they, um, frustration, the anger that all of those stages, as, as you do with any loved one, a family member, you know, it isn't any different, in fact, in some ways it can be.
Even more difficult. And I say that because of, you know, we all know very well-meaning people who sometimes will say things that they think are helpful, but actually are not, um, such as [00:19:00] well, you know, you can get another dog or. Well, you know, um, I feel better. It'll get better. Don't worry about it. It's okay.
It's just a dog. And you know, so in a transition crew, you're able to share your feelings with people. Who've had the same experience. You get the validation that no, this is, uh, integral this dog and I have it in Africa. Special relationship. And it's going to take a long time. It's going to take a while.
And you know, for many people they can not just jump right in and say, okay, I'm getting another dog right now. They need to process.
Leslie: So Lori, I think it's wonderful what you're doing and helping us. And so I'm curious to, what do you tell clients or how do you, uh, help clients through that comparison? Part of it [00:20:00] of comparing dog one to dog two or dog two to three, kind of all those, what if questions?
Laurie: Uh, what I will will say is a week we focus a lot on, you know, you remember. Your first dog and you'll never forget them and you can do things to keep their memory alive. And we talk about that things that help with that process, but bringing that new dog into your life is again, starting over and learning about the dog and its personality.
And. Spending time with them and looking at them. I mean, it's like comparing to know we don't, we try not to compare our children if you have children, you know? So it is, it's a new beginning and getting to know them on a, on a level that you're learning all over again. You really are. [00:21:00]
Christina: Yeah. And Lori have for you in this volunteer role, I mean, what made you.
Motivated to want to volunteer and help out other clients.
Laurie: Well, leader dog has given so much to me in terms of, you know, my first dog, Caitlin going through this second. Um, the one that didn't, unfortunately didn't work out and then I have a pandemic dog. Um, my newest one who is just fabulous and leader dog is.
It's such a fabulous organization and give so much I wanted, and I'm retired now. And I wanted to know how I could give back and use my skills and hopefully help people. And in every class I get, believe me, I get as much out of it is if not more than the students that are.
Leslie: Lori, we are so thankful to you for, for doing that role and helping [00:22:00] our other clients go through these processes, the grieving, the loss, the transition.
It's very overwhelming. And I think it's wonderful to have somebody who's got a background and experience to talk about these things, but also personal, real life experience that can share and really relate. I want to thank you for being so open with us today and sharing your experiences with us. And I also want to thank all of our listeners for listening to the, taking the lead podcast.
I'm Leslie Hoskins with host Christina Hapner and Timothy Cuneo. We hope you enjoyed learning about dog retirement and law. And please do join us next week as we continue to dive into the world of blindness. And if you'd
Christina: like to learn more about applying to leader dog, you can head to leader, dog.org or call us at (888) 777-5332.
And don't forget, you can reach us at taking the lead at leader, dog.org with any questions or ideas. And if you like today's podcast and make sure to hit subscribe and check us out wherever podcast street.[00:23:00]